Gameplay: Unlocking new weapons ?!

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Gameplay: Unlocking new weapons ?!

Postby mangaas » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:20 am

I'm not sure anyone has mentioned this yet in the big thread, but how about having an upgrade/unlock system for the guns?

I don't play many console shooters, so I don't know exactley how long it takes to unlock guns/perks in these games, but how about unlocking the guns as you play more and accomplish certain types of kills, like achievements?

This way, a beginner isn't overwhelmed by having a huge arsenal of guns to choose from, (not knowing the exact difference between each), they just have a few, or even just 1 of each category.

And as you kill more with weapons in a specific category, (RIFLES, PISTOLS, SHOTGUNS), you get to unlock a new weapon for that specific category, (maybe even of your choice), with a small description explaining each weapons pros and cons.

Like, after you get enough "points" or exp. in a certain category, say hand-guns, it lets you unlock another one, with a small description for each:
"The SOCOM, doesn't have as many bullets as 5-7, but its' more powerful, and it has less recoil than the more powerful GLOCK or Desert Eagle, making it a good all around mid-range hand-gun for beginners."

or

"The Desert Eagle is on of the more powerful hand-guns, but with only 7 bullets, and high recoil, it makes it a lot harder to handle"

Giving the player an basic idea of what he's getting

And now I'm just blabbing with minor details but...
having certain guns take more experience points than other, so you COULD unlock the raging bull, but the same amount of points would unlock a 5-7 and glock.
In the end it wouldn't' matter, because the player will have them all eventually

Just imagine if TS already had this implemented. with only the beretta as a hand-gun, M4A1 as the only Rifle, the SPAS as the only shotgun etc.

With players unlocking the stronger, but harder-to-handle AK after killing enough with the M4A1, or having to unlock ALL the shotguns before being able to use the sawed-off

And only certain achievements would unlock certain guns, like; get a HUGE number of head-shots with hand-guns, and you unlock the contender, or get a certain numbers of scoped kills with the M16 and you unlock the Barret. get a certain number of stunt/dive kills with knives, you unlock the more powerful combat throwing knives.

I think if the game allows for even MORE weapons than TS, this could be a great way of getting the player more involved and invested in his play-time.

And always keep in mind, for the sake of simplicity, this unlock system can also be stupid-simple as well.

yay, nay?
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Re: Gameplay: Unlocking new weapons ?!

Postby Dan » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:23 am

Unlocking weapons is all the rage these days. I think a lot of people would expect a weapon unlock system after Battlefield / Calladooty.

The only problem I have with this is that unlocking weapons tends to give you a sense of accomplishment and drive, and once you've unlocked them all, you suddenly don't feel like playing anymore. This happened to me with Bad Company 2.

Older shooters never had unlockable weapons, but they never seemed to get as stale because they had core gameplay that was rewarding in and of itself to play instead of making new unlocks the reward.
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Re: Gameplay: Unlocking new weapons ?!

Postby Wish » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:25 am

I'd be against it both for simplicity's sake, and not wanting to bother with it. I want to roll my style from day one. With whatever gun I want, whenever I want, however I want. Limiting people from the beginning goes against the TS vibe.

and once you've unlocked them all, you suddenly don't feel like playing anymore.


I'm sure this doesn't happen to everybody, but it has totally happened to me too.
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Re: Gameplay: Unlocking new weapons ?!

Postby Vino » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:44 am

That's because those games weren't fun enough to play by themselves. The challenge in achieving a goal (unlocking a weapon) was the fun, when you got it, fun over.
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Re: Gameplay: Unlocking new weapons ?!

Postby mangaas » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:52 am

That's true, the problem with grinding in any game, is that once you're done, part of the incentive is gone.

I think the main problem with games like battlefield, is that the unlocked weapons are always better (no?) so you end up not using the earlier guns?

BUT, Unlocking a crapload of handguns, rifles and shotguns which are at least a little more balanced, without 1 main gun to overshadow them all, will leave the player feeling like he's just collected a cool array of guns that he'll constantly swap around and experiment with. Those console shooters are usually class based, with you constantly upgrading your guy, and never using your older guns.

I imagined it implemented in TS while playing today, and it seemed like it would have made the game a bit more fun and involving then just regular brainless deathmatch. forcing the player to use every gun along the way. And I mean forcing the player in a GOOD way. This gameplay design is tested and true. People enjoy feeling like they earned each weapon. Like forcing people to knife, to upgrade to combat knives and then upgrade again to finally unlock the Katana.

Every game gets boring after playing it to death anyways, but I don't think having this would somehow make the game grow boring faster.

The era of autistic boosters, trick-stunters and fu-ers is over, they can't sustain a REAL game. Something like this may make the game that much EASIER or at least simpler to pick up and play at first, and it'll give that tried and true gameplay mechanice of "grinding" which is proven to get people playing anything. And maybe by the time they unlock everything, they'll be hooked on the actual insane shootan gameplay.

@wish, I'd agree with you, but after thinking about it myself while playing TS on a zombie server, I kinda see the charm in unlocking stuff with achievements or whatever. Don't look at it as a game like TS that you've already played forever and are good at, look at it as a new game, that's introducing you to EVERY gun along the way. I'm an oldschool gamer, who isn't much into the new console shooters and achievements, but I can't deny that the majority seem to like them.
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Re: Gameplay: Unlocking new weapons ?!

Postby Dan » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:57 am

mangaas wrote: Don't look at it as a game like TS that you've already played forever and are good at, look at it as a new game


I agree with this a lot. TS is definitely the inspiration for this game, but we really should think of this as it's own game, not a shadow of TS, and the design decisions that go into the game shouldn't be restricted to the inside of the TS-box so to speak.
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Re: Gameplay: Unlocking new weapons ?!

Postby ThinRedPaste » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:00 am

OH GOD NO! NO!! A MILLION TIMES NO!!!!
Fuck this shit, I'm going to bed.
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Re: Gameplay: Unlocking new weapons ?!

Postby Wish » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:05 am

Don't look at it as a game like TS that you've already played forever and are good at, look at it as a new game


New game or not, the stuff that made TS fun and attractive still needs to be present in it.

A game like this already has a significant skill gap, more so than other games because you don't always have a team at your back. Weapon progression will only make that gap more pronounced, and make the game less friendly to new players as they're smashed down by people who are not only better than they are, but better armed as well. It would be like making people unlock their stunts one at a time.

I'm not against the concept of unlocks, but unlocks that break A) freedom B) gameplay would be a problem.

If something has to be unlockable, make it new player models, or colors for the models. New skins and finishes for your guns. Something that doesn't affect the core of your gameplay experience.
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Re: Gameplay: Unlocking new weapons ?!

Postby mangaas » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:31 am

Wish wrote:A game like this already has a significant skill gap, more so than other games because you don't always have a team at your back. Weapon progression will only make that gap more pronounced, and make the game less friendly to new players as they're smashed down by people who are not only better than they are, but better armed as well. It would be like making people unlock their stunts one at a time.

I can agree with you when it comes to other games, maybe, but not when it comes to a game like TS

the gap in skill had little to do with weapons

The concept was that most of the guns, (except something like the ruger), are all worthy of going up against eachother. A new player in TS got his ass-handed to him, no matter what gun he was using and no matter what gun his opponent was (or in the case of kung fu) was not using. you got killed quickly anyways. This mechanic I'm suggesting lets new players have a reason to keep coming back and get their ass handed to them, as they unlock new guns (which again DOES bring players back) and learn the ins and outs of each gun as they use them for longer times. and hopefully by then, new players will have played the game enough to put up a fighting chance.

The frustration with TS was the steep learning curve, and players inability to give a shit in learning all the ins and outs of boosting or Kung fu as they constantly got back-kick-disarmed or stunt dive and 5-7 spammed to the head, without ever having a chance to let off a shot. Even with every weapon at their disposal, a lot of people were turned off by TS's "EXTREME" gameplay. Although it was one of the more successful action/diving/HL 1 mods, it was WAY off from ever being an overall playable and accessible game. If you want to make a game that still encompasses that awesome TS gameplay, you need to try and present it in a more casual-friendly manner, otherwise, you scare away new players, and end up AGAIN, with the elitist trolling/naruto/pro-fin players.

One of my biggest frustrations with TS was, I could never get any of my real life friends to play or enjoy it, they were instantly turned off by it, because nobody likes to start playing a game, only to constantly lose over and over and over again.

Anyways, if it doesn't fit with DOUBLE ACTION gameplay, it could make an interesting play mode. Maybe called "professional". Where everyone starts off with shit, and unlock more weapons as they collect more kills. I dunno, it was just an idea. :|
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Re: Gameplay: Unlocking new weapons ?!

Postby Vspec » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:38 am

Wish wrote:
It would be like making people unlock their stunts one at a time.


While we're on this subject I'd like to bring forth a suggestion.

How about a melee move buying system like GodHand had?

Oh fuck a roulette move system, albeit renamed for the sake of legality would be tits.

Actually Clover, the company that made GodHand, went out of business years ago.

Just something to ponder
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Re: Gameplay: Unlocking new weapons ?!

Postby Vino » Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:03 am

I highly doubt I'll do unlocking weapons from the get-go. My plan for the initial version probably won't even include enough weapons for there to be extras to unlock. I might consider when updates are released that players have to unlock the weapons somehow before they can use them, but honestly unlocking is a lot of extra work that a smaller team like what we'll have would be better off spending on designing good weapons and shipping sooner and more often.
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Re: Gameplay: Unlocking new weapons ?!

Postby raidyr » Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:25 am

I can get behind the idea of unlocking attachments for guns you have, but not the guns themselves. I am currently grinding through Crysis and the fact that it took me a week to get something that looked like an SMG was annoying.
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Re: Gameplay: Unlocking new weapons ?!

Postby Antagonist » Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:28 am

raidyr wrote:I can get behind the idea of unlocking attachments for guns you have, but not the guns themselves. I am currently grinding through Crysis and the fact that it took me a week to get something that looked like an SMG was annoying.

I think you're right there. If only the semi-cosmetic things were unlockable, it would be pretty sweet and wouldn't hamper the game being accessible, too much.
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Re: Gameplay: Unlocking new weapons ?!

Postby raidyr » Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:49 am

I have no problem with having weapon attachments being a progressive thing; would show off how much you like using a certain weapon. Having entire weapon classes being cut off until you put 10/20/30 hours into a game is just awful.
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Re: Gameplay: Unlocking new weapons ?!

Postby Antagonist » Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:50 am

raidyr wrote:I have no problem with having weapon attachments being a progressive thing; would show off how much you like using a certain weapon. Having entire weapon classes being cut off until you put 10/20/30 hours into a game is just awful.

Yeah I tried Crysis 2 and I was put off by the way you couldn't get to touch a SMG from the start.
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