Pistols, Rifles, and Gun Mechanics

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Pistols, Rifles, and Gun Mechanics

Postby Hadji|DP » Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:59 am

One of the biggest divides concerning guns in The Specialists was between Pistols and Rifles. Aside from the many arguments about how "un-actiony" they were, many of the gameplay arguments centered around the simple fact that rifles simply, on a one on one basis, outperform pistols. What are you suppose to do with a class of weapons that in every single way are just better than another class of weapons?

However, since this game is NOT The Specialists, we have been blessed with finding ways to solve this problem. This thread is a way to discuss new ways to address this issue. Some ways that come to my mind are:

- Drop Rifles all together
TOG suggested this in the main thread. By not including rifles all together, we completely circumvent the issue of the cosmetic "un-actiony" feel of rifles and allow pistols to REALLY shine without rifles beating them in every single way. We also leave alot more room for more interesting weapons seen in action films (CRAZY shotguns! MORE CONTENDERS! SINGLE ACTION ARMY REVOLVERS) and can give them a meaningful gameplay element other than "this has slightly more damage/ammo." However, we completely lose an entire class of weapons. Take that as you will.

- Finely Detailed Gun Mechanics
By this I mean coming up with a system that governs all weapons fired that naturally gives pistols an advantage over rifles when used in a certain way. For example, rifles need to be fired in burst shots or their accuracy decay increases, while pistols can be fired as fast as you can click without the worry of accuracy decay. This also allows pistols to shine in their own way separate from rifles, but this makes for a much more complicated system than a simpler "gun shoots, you die." kind of guiding thought.

- Give Stunts some sort of Hitbox changing status
While this is a thread mainly about gun mechanics, by making stunts a change the state of your hitbox, the mechanics governing weapon firing can be as simple as "gun shoots, you die," but gives pistols a clear advantage over rifles in giving players the new option of changing their hitbox into a constantly morphing object. For example, stunts would not only make your hitbox move in an extremely erratic pattern, but it would also shrink your hitboxes so that the valid targets players must hit become even harder while stunting. Such stunts would be unavailable to players who equip rifles (Due to weight restrictions/whatever is decided), and are thus at a disadvantage to those who only use pistols.

- Do Nothing
By doing nothing, we concede to the hard reality and force the players to find a way to make a "pistols only" loadout work in the face of shotguns, SMGs, Rifles, players with more than one pistol, players with pistols AND rifles, and so and and so on.

Any other ideas about general gun mechanics are welcomed.
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Re: Pistols, Rifles, and Gun Mechanics

Postby Antagonist » Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:15 am

Huge accuracy decay for rifles. None for low caliber pistol. Medium for smgs. High power pistols and shotguns have high recoil. How hard can it get lol?
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Re: Pistols, Rifles, and Gun Mechanics

Postby Wish » Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:38 pm

Antagonist wrote:Huge accuracy decay for rifles. None for low caliber pistol. Medium for smgs. High power pistols and shotguns have high recoil. How hard can it get lol?



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Re: Pistols, Rifles, and Gun Mechanics

Postby ThinRedPaste » Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:33 pm

I'm kind of surprised this was even a discussion. Its so simple.
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Re: Pistols, Rifles, and Gun Mechanics

Postby TOGSolid » Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:21 pm

ThinRedPaste wrote:I'm kind of surprised this was even a discussion. Its so simple.

I had already thought this through and realized that if we just made people be forced to use rifles like actual rifles, then the rifles would magically be balanced. They should be stupidly inaccurate when stunting and running around all willy nilly so that if the user wants to actually get anything done with them they need to use them all tacticool. Meanwhile the pistoleers will have far more range of motion. This is something that was only barely touched on in TS but could be taken much further to give each weapon class a very distinct feel and role to fill. SMGs could fill an interesting middle ground of being kinda spammy and innacurate but allowing for more range of motion and not being as retardedly inaccurate during stunts/running as the rifles. Pistols would naturally suffer 0 accuracy degradation during stunts and running.


Just to reiterate.
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Re: Pistols, Rifles, and Gun Mechanics

Postby LazyDog » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:18 pm

Running around stunting like crazy while blasting your gun (big or small) is what ts is all about imo. Accuracy penelty for rifles while stunting is just wrong. Making rifle users slower is and has always been the right way to go. It wasnt perfect in ts but the core idea is not broken.
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Re: Pistols, Rifles, and Gun Mechanics

Postby Semertzides » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:47 am

I object, taking the CS approach towards rifles seems like the most logical and natural thing to do. Making players slower simply makes rifles undesirable.
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Re: Pistols, Rifles, and Gun Mechanics

Postby LazyDog » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:01 am

Taking the cs approach will make rifle users undesirable on every server. Suddenly there will be people hidding in corners enjoying their awsome new tacticool shooter.
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Re: Pistols, Rifles, and Gun Mechanics

Postby TOGSolid » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:07 am

Feel free to come up with facts to support that. In every FPS game there are campers, but most everyone tends to stay at least fairly mobile since that's the most efficient way to get kills and points.
To that end, I do feel we need more kill bonuses that pertain towards American action movie style badassery on top of the regular HKBO stunting stuff. Maybe some sort of bodycount mode where you stay mobile and have a few seconds after a kill to get another kill? I dunno, I'd have to think about it.


This gave me the side idea of having slow-mo be a buildable meter that increases through being super stylish and have the player be able to manually pause the slow mo instead of it being a one shot item.

Anyway, here's a movie clip to completely support the idea of having guys slow down and what not to get things done with big guns:
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Re: Pistols, Rifles, and Gun Mechanics

Postby bryt » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:39 am

TOGSolid wrote:This gave me the side idea of having slow-mo be a buildable meter that increases through being super stylish and have the player be able to manually pause the slow mo instead of it being a one shot item.
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I like that. It sounds like the kind of mechanic that would really elevate the gameplay for me. But perhaps we should consider the possibility that player's shouldn't be able to earn more style points while in slowmo with such a system.
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Re: Pistols, Rifles, and Gun Mechanics

Postby Hadji|DP » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:53 am

A Slowmo meter sounds like a really awesome mechanic, and just like brystis said as long as you don't earn more while in slowmo it sounds like an awesome way to add a depth to the gameplay (managing meter would essentially be like managing economy in games like starcraft, or in fighting games managing meter).

Also, with regards to TOG's idea, building meter through a high bodycount in a short time sounds wonderful. For example, you would gain meter as long as you kill another person before x seconds ends (x can be whatever number is cool, it can even be LESS than 1). This way, the American action style of badasses walking around explosions and bullets while shooting mook after mook is also a viable "look" along with HKBO style dives and the Matrix-inspired backflips and shit.

EDIT: I made a new thread about the idea of a slow-motion meter because I think the idea is so good it deserves its own thread away from this argument between pistols and rifles. Please go there to talk about this idea of a meter!
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Re: Pistols, Rifles, and Gun Mechanics

Postby LazyDog » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:10 pm

TOGSolid wrote:Feel free to come up with facts to support that.

Ok.

"They (rifles) should be stupidly inaccurate when stunting and running around..." = Rifle bearing people that will not stunt nor move around = Campers.

That's my logical conclusion.
My empirical facts are every tactical shooter out there. Or did I miss something?
And well I admit that I use "campers" in a broad sense... I mean people that will mostly move around slow trying to attack people from behind rather than running into a fight. This also takes skill but there are just so many other games with this approach.

TOGSolid wrote:This gave me the side idea of having slow-mo be a buildable meter that increases through being super stylish and have the player be able to manually pause the slow mo instead of it being a one shot item.

This seems cool and beats the score-reward for stunt-kills.
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Re: Pistols, Rifles, and Gun Mechanics

Postby LazyDog » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:30 pm

Let me just add something.
It was a long time since a last played TS. But was the rifles really that bad back in the days? And was it not the fu (yeah those gotdamn fuers) that fucked everything up for the rifle users?

And if the problem is that rifles are to unsexy cant we just make it so that some obstacles on the maps can only be blown up if shot at with high caliber. That would be sexy. I remember loving the fact that you would get frags by blowing up stuff close to you opponents in TS. And I'm sure we can come up with some more rifle sexiness.
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Re: Pistols, Rifles, and Gun Mechanics

Postby Hadji|DP » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:58 pm

LazyDog wrote:Let me just add something.
It was a long time since a last played TS. But was the rifles really that bad back in the days? And was it not the fu (yeah those gotdamn fuers) that fucked everything up for the rifle users?


All weapons were at a disadvantage to rifles because rifles were good at EVERYTHING. You could spray and pray with a rifle AND take well placed shots at long range, dominating pistols, shotguns, and SMGs. The only reason why pistols, shotguns, and SMGs were even viable in The Specialists was the fact you could disarm and you could stunt, which made your hitbox fast, erratic, and horizontal instead of vertical, so a spread of bullets would only hit you once instead of 4 times, theoretically.
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Re: Pistols, Rifles, and Gun Mechanics

Postby Antagonist » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:00 pm

LazyDog wrote:And if the problem is that rifles are to unsexy cant we just make it so that some obstacles on the maps can only be blown up if shot at with high caliber. That would be sexy. I remember loving the fact that you would get frags by blowing up stuff close to you opponents in TS. And I'm sure we can come up with some more rifle sexiness.

See that's part of why I want to see shit like a RPG-7 in this game. Having rooms on maps that are optional to visit (could be hidden behind a wall with cracks in it that you could just blow up) would be fryckling awesome.
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