Class Struggle.

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Class Struggle.

Postby misanq » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:47 am

vino wrote:I'm not deadset against but I am strongly biased against a class system. Part of the original charm of TS was fluid equipment - ditching your weapon for the one on the floor. The game is weapon-based and not class-based, introducing classes would I think change the spirit of the game.


I feel that 'Freedom' was one of those TS ideals that seemed like a good idea on paper but didn't actually work in practice. In TS you could use heavy load outs like a rifle/shotgun combo, akimbo uzis or the m60, but only baddies and griefers would do it because not being able to do flips or dive more than a few meters was boring and shuffling through the level like a geriatric gun locker was genuinely annoying.
Certainly, TS had the illusion of choice, but when it came down to it, most players wouldn't even go as far as mid weight loadouts like shotguns or rifles once they'd worked the game out.
In a way, it was kind of ironic that the later dev teams were so obsessed with making sure that each weapon had it's special place when the majority of the weapons weren't actually used by players.
If you want "all ways of playing the game to be valid" then I don't think you can afford to go down the road TS did with restricted rifles and fun pistols.

Now, getting to classes. In exchange for the perceived freedom of the weight system, there are three very positive improvements that a class system could bring to the old TS model: Character, Structure and Balance. As I brushed upon in the other thread, one of the great things about classes is that they can add narrative and character to a game that arguably has very little of either. If you look at the difference between TF and TF2, most of what enarmored people to the remake was the rich personality each class had, indeed the classes stopped being classes and became literal characters. Well realised classes have the potential to bring that sort of quality to your game too.

Secondly, classes also allow you to create a structure to guide new players into the game without actually taking away any of the freedom of TS. The very existence of classes would passively communicate to new players the various play-styles that are available to them, while also going a ways to legitimizing less popular playstyles as "part of the game" and even allow you to potentially give them a unique gameplay element to offset the sting any punitive balance measures; something that the weight system could never achieve.
More so, dividing the playstyles into clear cut classes would only really remove the perception of freedom, since the old weight system was arguably already a proto-class system anyway due to the way it drew a line at arbitrary weight limits and removed progressively stunt options whenever a player crossed them. Furthermore, you could have it both ways if you were to copy the overlapping loadout system from Neotokyo (it allowed the middle class access to all of the weapon categories bar the very heavy selections) thereby maintaining a bastion of freedom within the class system without necessarily having to hamper new players with a weight system.

Lastly, as I mentioned earlier, the ability to play with the models sizes would allow an extra weapon balance dial. How prominent the effect would be, I don't know; but surely it would be better than gluing riflers to the ground?

Now, I'm going to go out on a limb and show you a 'proof of concept' of how a TF2 class system could work in the context of an action game. Keep in mind that I'm not intending this as a "hayguyzushuldmaktehgamexaclythisway", but rather as a demonstration of what's possible with a class system.


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I've gone with a few conceits purely for flavour purposes, namely that each class represents a archetype of the standard 80s/90s era All-American action team (if you don't like that just imagine them as representations of the various eras of action hero i.e. HKBO, Modern and 80s Beefcake), that players can only carry two weapons, that massively spammy weapons have a place in the game (e.g. the m60) and that the classes have differences other than just model shape such as special class abilities and weapons unique to the class.

Slim class:
This class could represent the 'little guy' of the team and corresponds to the the pistol playstyle of TS.

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Weapons classes: Pistols, submachine guns and shotguns.
Class Perk: A special stunt.
Class weapons: As per it's inspiration, this class's unique weapons would presumably be unorthodox or genuinely exotic single handed weapons i.e. A heavy caliber revolver, a sawn off shotgun, the g18, the contender etc.
This class could be slowed slightly when holding heavier weapons such as full sized smgs and shotguns and grabbing dropped rifles and heavy weapons would incur severe penalties.


Medium sized class.
This class could represent the 'team leader' or 'tactical guy' and corresponds to the 'freedom' ideal of TS.

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Weapons classes: pistols, smgs, shotguns and rifles.
Class Perk: If you wanted have iron-sighting in the game, this is the class for it.
Class weapons: This one is really up to how you perceive this guy's archetype, but I would suggest 'tactical' weapons along the lines of a tricked out mp5SD/USP, some sort of semiautomatic rifle or semiautomatic shotgun - use your imagination for this one.
This class could be slowed slightly by rifles and heavier accuracy penalties for running with larger automatic weapons likely would be perceived as fair.

Beefcake class.
This class would obviously represent the 'machine gun guy' and correspond to the the failed 'specialist' tank concept of TS.

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Weapons classes: Smgs, shotguns and rifles.
Class perk: The ability to carry two full sized weapons.
Class weapons: This class would ideally have weapon choices that evoked the crass overkill of the 80s e.g. A hipfired M60, Akimbo fullsized uzis with the stocks extended, a mac10 with massive silencer and laser attachments etc.
This is the class that you get away with limiting in terms of stunts and speed without seeming boring. Though, I would suggest that a decent jog and medium dives would be as far as you would want to go with that.


So there you have it, where you had deceptively narrow freedom, you now have three defined play-styles that are all potentially fun in their own way, topped off by the possibility for TF2-style characterization. More so, if you wanted to go really wild with the concept, there's also the capacity for themed perks for each class or even minor class roles for whatever teamplay modes find their way into the game.
And even if this has permanently hardened heart against classes at least look at these pictures I found while putting this post together.

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Re: Class Struggle.

Postby ThinRedPaste » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:24 am

we've been over this and over this. For the love of god, no classes. I could go through and tear your whole post apart like people are so fond of doing on internets, but its 2am and i have work in the morning so let me just say this: Every point you made is wrong.
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Re: Class Struggle.

Postby Dubface » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:32 am

Class systems killed my father. And raped my mother.




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Re: Class Struggle.

Postby Vspec » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:47 am

Dubface wrote:Class systems killed my father. And raped my mother.




________________________________________________

YO DAWG I WAS TOTES CHILLIN IN MY PEICE
WRAPPED UP IN MY TURTLENECK FLEECE
GOT BACK IN MY CRIB NO IDEA WHAT TO DO
I GUESS I'LL JUST PLAY ACTION EXTRAVAGANZA ELECTRIC BOOGALOO



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Re: Class Struggle.

Postby ThinRedPaste » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:57 am

actually he was a barrett whore back in the day. and his last name starts with W.
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Re: Class Struggle.

Postby Oreo » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:57 am

misanq wrote:In TS you could use heavy load outs like a rifle/shotgun combo, akimbo uzis or the m60, but only baddies and griefers would do it because not being able to do flips or dive more than a few meters was boring and shuffling through the level like a geriatric gun locker was genuinely annoying.


Opinion, not fact.

misanq wrote:Certainly, TS had the illusion of choice, but when it came down to it, most players wouldn't even go as far as mid weight loadouts like shotguns or rifles once they'd worked the game out.


Did you play the game? I saw rifles, SMGs, and shotguns WAY more than pistols. Maybe in "competitive" play it was all pistols. But as for the standard pub? There was a wide array of guns.

misanq wrote:If you want "all ways of playing the game to be valid" then I don't think you can afford to go down the road TS did with restricted rifles and fun pistols.


What is fun and what is not fun is subjective. Saying "this was fun" or "this was unfun" needs to have either hard evidence, or someone to back up your claims.

misanq wrote:As I brushed upon in the other thread, one of the great things about classes is that they can add narrative and character to a game that arguably has very little of either.


Character development in a deathmatch oriented, multiplayer only game is completely pointless.

I dunno. Maybe I'm the odd man out here, but I don't play Quake 3 for the story. And I didn't play TS for the story, that was for damn sure.

misanq wrote:If you look at the difference between TF and TF2, most of what enarmored people to the remake was the rich personality each class had, indeed the classes stopped being classes and became literal characters. Well realised classes have the potential to bring that sort of quality to your game too.


Valve did something smart with TF2. They created a personality for each one of their characters. However, that is not a smart game design decision. Rather, it's a smart marketing ploy. If the gameplay of any of the characters didn't attract the attention of potential customers, the trailers highlighting the cartoony style and wacky characters would. That's one of the major reasons Valve spends so much time making the "Meet The" movies. Not only is it fan service, but it is intended to trick the consumer into believing there is a story, when really the game just has a vast array of pre-recorded taunts that involve no interaction whatsoever.

misanq wrote:Secondly, classes also allow you to create a structure to guide new players into the game without actually taking away any of the freedom of TS.


Actually, it takes away ALL of the freedom of weapon selection in TS. Also, fuck new players. The thing that made old multiplayer games was the steep learning curve. If the game needs to be dumbed down to the point where people can't decide on what weapons they want to use and they need pre-made options spoon fed to them, they dumb and aren't worth having in the playerbase.

misanq wrote:The very existence of classes would passively communicate to new players the various play-styles that are available to them, while also going a ways to legitimizing less popular playstyles as "part of the game" and even allow you to potentially give them a unique gameplay element to offset the sting any punitive balance measures; something that the weight system could never achieve.


The weight system was fantastic. When you picked up a heavier gun, if you had a frontal brain lobe, you realized you would move slower. The choice would become clear instantly, and you could decide from there. Again, this does not need to be dumbed down.

misanq wrote:More so, dividing the playstyles into clear cut classes would only really remove the perception of freedom, since the old weight system was arguably already a proto-class system anyway due to the way it drew a line at arbitrary weight limits and removed progressively stunt options whenever a player crossed them.


No. At any time, you could toss a weapon from your inventory and instantly gain movement speed, whereas a class system would lock you into a certain gameplay style until you switched classes. The depth that the weight system brought to the game is INFINITELY more complex than a class system WITH THIS FACT ALONE.

misanq wrote:Now, I'm going to go out on a limb and show you a 'proof of concept' of how a TF2 class system could work in the context of an action game. Keep in mind that I'm not intending this as a "hayguyzushuldmaktehgamexaclythisway", but rather as a demonstration of what's possible with a class system.


Let me stop you right there and explain to you why class systems even exist at all in multiplayer games in their current state. I will use TF2 as the leading example, as it is your most used reference in your post.

A class system exists mainly to give each player a distinct role to play in the achievement of an objective. Classes are used almost exclusively in team oriented games. TF2, Neotokyo, Natural Selection; they all did this. When a team has an objective to complete, a system of classes allows a player to choose with near 100% certainty what their role in the game will be. In TF2, it's SUPER obvious. The medic is passive. The scout is actively attacking. The demo is area denial. Etcetera, etcetera. However, TS (while having a few team based game modes) was predominantly free-for-all. A class system was not required, as nobody had a goal they had to complete other than "shoot the other guy". A class based system would be impossibly difficult to implement into a free-for-all deathmatch game, as players would CONSTANTLY be flip-flopping between classes each time they die, trying to choose a class that would have a tactical advantage against the person who most recently killed them. Also, with a class based system, there would almost invariably be one class that has a general slight advantage over every other one. You would have a game full of one class, with the other classes ignored. When everyone has the same set of movement options and the same weapons, everyone is on equal footing, and EVERYONE has a fair chance. Classes remove this balance, and creates a "rock paper scissors" scenario where the player's score is less dependent on skill and more on class selection.
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Re: Class Struggle.

Postby Wish » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:05 am

I feel that 'Freedom' was one of those TS ideals that seemed like a good idea on paper but didn't actually work in practice.


Flawed, not broken. This is our opportunity to refine it.

only baddies and griefers would do it


No

classes is that they can add narrative and character to a game that arguably has very little of either. If you look at the difference between TF and TF2, most of what enarmored people to the remake was the rich personality each class had, indeed the classes stopped being classes and became literal characters. Well realised classes have the potential to bring that sort of quality to your game too.


There are many ways to do this, plenty of which don't put the player into a box. This game is about me rolling how I want to roll. The player is the character, and the player model is just a suit of clothes. Character comes from me and my personal playstyle. TF2 characterization is certainly cool, but it has no place in a game that emphasizes individuality. When you play an MMO, do you want the MMO devs making your character for you?

classes also allow you to create a structure to guide new players into the game without actually taking away any of the freedom of TS


I'm a little concerned about all this concern over guides and new players and coddling. Is this going to be released on the Wii? Angry Birds, the FPS?

You do have to look out for your new players. Make a manual. Make promotional videos that introduce gameplay, like Zombie Panic: Source did. Include pre-fab weapon loadouts that illustrate different styles. This is no argument for classes. Though twelve year olds will play it, this is not a game for twelve year olds, and we have no obligation to treat it like one.

remove the perception of freedom


Even if you were right about TS only having the illusion of freedom, which you're not, removing that illusion only makes a less attractive game. Instead of an invisible box, now I'm in one with ugly walls. Great.

the ability to play with the models sizes would allow an extra weapon balance dial


This is the absolute last thing we need. Weapon balancing is challenging enough without new variables to make it worse.

Let's see if we can balance weapons with the variables we've got first.

three defined play-styles


Sounds like a massive step backward to me. And who the hell are we to define play styles for anyone but ourselves?


Bro, I see where you're coming from - and I agree that the TS system had problems. But classes are not the answer.
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Re: Class Struggle.

Postby Oreo » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:28 am

misanq wrote:I feel that 'Freedom' was one of those TS ideals that seemed like a good idea on paper but didn't actually work in practice.


Also, just throwing this out there.

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Re: Class Struggle.

Postby Antagonist » Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:39 am

While I think that it is interesting to read your suggestions, Misan, because you put a lot of thought into it, I still don't think that it is the path we wanna go.

However, having a weight system was always pretty hard to balance. A class system might seem easy to balance, but I don't think it will need less work, if you want each class to be worth something. To be honest, I've been thinking a little too and there really is only one system that adds strategic elements with few drawbacks. Mentioning it will probably get me flamed but I will anyway. One primary weapon, one secondary weapon. Except the two guns can be any weapon.

In a game like CS, you can always get more ammo at the start of the next round, but in a game that is more geared towards deathmatch, you'll be picking up other people's weapons. One thing that always sucked shit (it actually gave blowjobs to turds that had been picked up from a toilet) was picking up the right weapon and throwing the right one if you had a huge arsenal. Everyone dropped tons of shit upon death and often it wasn't scattered enough to make it easy for the game to distinguish what you wanted to pick up. It was definitely not gamebreaking but it was pretty fucking assy compared to how simple it is to pick up a gun in other games.

I'm also in favor of weapons that you can pick up on the map that have certain advantages and draw backs that aren't necessarily balanced enough that you'll want people to spawn with them (you know, shit like nade launchers). This would make it a strategic choice whether you want to keep going with your akimbo colts and shotgun or drop something and pick up something larger that you have less ammo for.

Let's think about what the added value of letting players have more than two to three weapons is. I don't really see it. Most players that topped the scoreboards in TS didn't use a lot of weapons at the same time.
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Re: Class Struggle.

Postby misanq » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:05 am

ThinRedPaste wrote:we've been over this and over this. For the love of god, no classes. I could go through and tear your whole post apart like people are so fond of doing on internets, but its 2am and i have work in the morning so let me just say this: Every point you made is wrong.

If you didn't have the time to post something constructive why were you still browsing the forums at 4am?


Antagonist wrote:One primary weapon, one secondary weapon. Except the two guns can be any weapon.

I am staunchly in favour of this.

Antagonist wrote:I'm also in favor of weapons that you can pick up on the map that have certain advantages and draw backs that aren't necessarily balanced enough that you'll want people to spawn with them (you know, shit like nade launchers).

I think that this would be fraught with peril and cheese, partularly if the spawn sites were camp-able.


For the other two:

Walking slowly is totes fun.
I think if we took a forum vote as far as the fun factor of light loadouts vs. heavy loadouts in TS were concerned, the result would be fairly one sided, as would a poll of pistol/smg usage vs. rifle and super heavy loadouts. Why not go and do that?
I agree that I can agree that prefab loadouts great way to get people into the game without accidentally spawning with five weapons, but I feel that classes can add much more to the game.
I also conceed that classes do remove the ability to gain mobility by dropping, however I would counter that that is a rather minor concern in comparison the flaws of the weight system and I would also put forward that this problem may not even bother people who opt for the slower classes.



Characterization, marketing and individuality.
As far as TF2 is concerned, I would suggest that you're greatly misunderstanding the power of the remake's characterization if you see it as simple a marketing ploy. On the contrary, it’s a forged a deep bond between players and the game that keeps them playing; or do you suppose that people would still grind and trade hats and novelty items if valve had kept the old art and voice style?
Moreover, I believe you're confused with the meaning of "narrative" in the context of a game like TF2. In the personalities and design of the characters tell a 'narrative' about two ironically identical teams of international mercenaries vying for supremacy some time during the 60s (vs. TF's two teams - kil they ass).
What's more, if there's one thing that a mod needs is on-sight marketability; people need to be able to look videos or screenshots of this game and instantly recognize a sense of character that attracts them in addition to the unusual gameplay, otherwise they're liable to browse on by. This is especially important if the game ends up having prominent elements that could be seen as being derived from COD.
Frankly, I really don't understand this resistance to the idea of marketing or making it easy for new players to get into the game. I would have thought that trying to get as many people to try the game as possible would a pretty popular idea. Frankly I don't think that the dev team should fuck new players, I think they should try grab as many players as possible using any sort of marketing "tricks" and handholding that need be, because what's the point of putting a tone of effort making a great game if nobody plays it? (And you must be joking to suggest that people will read manuals or watch instructional videos in 2011, surely?).

Also, I would hazard that many players of TS didn't view the characters as an extension of themselves, but rather saw the game as simply a fun deathmatch game that had a bunch of different ways to play. More so, I find it somewhat strange that you see different sized and themed player models as offering the player less individuality rather than more. And frankly I'd have thought people who view the game the way you do would jump at the opportunity to be able to RP as Beefy "The wolf" McHardpecs or vinne "kitsune" vinchenzo.

A class system doesn't belong.
I'll reiterate that the original TS was already divided into a soft classes by weight limits and this proposal simply solidifies those limits and playstyles. Each class's role is to embody a play-style, just as most of TF2's classes primarily embody a play-style rather than a specific role when you take away the map objectives. Futhermore, your (oreo) comment regarding people constantly changing classes to counter other players seems nonsensical to me given that people have always done this with both weapons and classes in DM games like TS and COD as well as games such as TF2. I mean, Mw2 had a deathstreak that allowed you to copy your killer's loadout.

I hope I've covered everything there.


Oh wait, nearly forgot,




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Re: Class Struggle.

Postby Sif » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:56 am

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Re: Class Struggle.

Postby Vino » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:52 am

misanq wrote:I feel that 'Freedom' was one of those TS ideals that seemed like a good idea on paper but didn't actually work in practice. In TS you could use heavy load outs like a rifle/shotgun combo, akimbo uzis or the m60, but only baddies and griefers would do it because not being able to do flips or dive more than a few meters was boring and shuffling through the level like a geriatric gun locker was genuinely annoying.
Certainly, TS had the illusion of choice, but when it came down to it, most players wouldn't even go as far as mid weight loadouts like shotguns or rifles once they'd worked the game out.
In a way, it was kind of ironic that the later dev teams were so obsessed with making sure that each weapon had it's special place when the majority of the weapons weren't actually used by players.
If you want "all ways of playing the game to be valid" then I don't think you can afford to go down the road TS did with restricted rifles and fun pistols.


misan, I think you have all good points but you come to all the wrong conclusions. In this sense you are like a game design Glenn Beck.

OH HE DID NOT JUST COMPARE YOU TO GLENN BECK I THINK HE DID!!!

Now that you bring these problems to the forefront of my mind, let's find some solutions for them that don't involve classes. These are just ideas, many of them may be horrible.

* Reduce movement restrictions for heavier weapons.
* No additional movement restrictions for more than x of a certain type of weapon.
* CS-similar deal where the movement restrictions for total weight are lower but a higher movement penalty for the weapon currently equipped. So, if you have a pistol and a rifle and the pistol is drawn, you still move somewhat quick.
* Rifle users don't get the speed disadvantage but they aren't able to use a hypothetical sprint feature.
* Rifle users move almost as fast as pistol and we rely on the aim-in mechanism to slow players down.
* Rifle users can move just as fast as pistol users but if they move without walking then they get an accuracy penalty whereas pistol users don't.

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Re: Class Struggle.

Postby misanq » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:36 am

Not surprising that one of the elite would be against classes, really. Don't fret mein furher I can see that the mindslaves are well behaved around here anyway.

Vino wrote:* Reduce movement restrictions for heavier weapons.

I would say that this is an essential change, particularly in the case of the larger sub-machine guns and shotguns and also the max weight speed.
Vino wrote:* Rifle users don't get the speed disadvantage but they aren't able to use a hypothetical sprint feature.

This is a pretty interesting idea, but I'd question how much faster you could get players moving unless you toned down the regular run speed from TS.
Vino wrote:* Rifle users move almost as fast as pistol and we rely on the aim-in mechanism to slow players down.

I would question what this would mean for stunting with rifles. Depending on the maxim effective range you have in mind for hipfiring this might be more restrictive than the old system.
Vino wrote:* No additional movement restrictions for more than x of a certain type of weapon.

Do you mean no additional movement restrictions whether a person has one sub-machine gun or two, or something else?
Vino wrote:* Rifle users can move just as fast as pistol users but if they move without walking then they get an accuracy penalty whereas pistol users don't.

This would probably be very unfun sorry. I think a CS style approach of having to stop for a second to regain accuracy as someone suggested in the other thread would work better than having to constantly walk unless it was a very fast walk.
* CS-similar deal where the movement restrictions for total weight are lower but a higher movement penalty for the weapon currently equipped. So, if you have a pistol and a rifle and the pistol is drawn, you still move somewhat quick.

I'd stay away from dark alleys for a while unless you want to catch a beatdown from TS purists. Though personally I don't think it would be that terrible.

You probably should have put these in a thread that people will read though.
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Re: Class Struggle.

Postby Antagonist » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:39 am

misanq wrote:
Vino wrote:* Rifle users can move just as fast as pistol users but if they move without walking then they get an accuracy penalty whereas pistol users don't.

This would probably be very unfun sorry. I think a CS style approach of having to stop for a second to regain accuracy as someone suggested in the other thread would work better than having to constantly walk unless it was a very fast walk.
* CS-similar deal where the movement restrictions for total weight are lower but a higher movement penalty for the weapon currently equipped. So, if you have a pistol and a rifle and the pistol is drawn, you still move somewhat quick.

I'd stay away from dark alleys for a while unless you want to catch a beatdown from TS purists. Though personally I don't think it would be that terrible.

You probably should have put these in a thread that people will read though.
I agree with this shit.

For the accuracy penalty when it comes to running, I don't really think we need to do more to make rifles disadvantaged than just give them a big accuracy decay by default. Running or jumping doesn't have to affect that.

I really like the idea of having just two guns per load out. I just think it's a bit much to have one pistol, one shotgun and one assault rifle or smg at the same time. I don't think that a game where you have six different pistols at the same time is very cool either. How many times when you were doing good in TS did you carry more than two guns anyway? I mean, if you can have 2 guns with an attachment each, I think it would be satisfying. I'm counting akimbo as an attachment btw.

Also, "just two" guns per load out doesn't have to feel like you're carrying too few guns. It means you can actually have one shotgun and a rifle, or you can have two pairs of pistols, or one pair of pistols and an smg, or whatever the fuck you feel like. On top of that, you can carry a knife (even if it only replaces your coldcock), throwing knives, hand grenades if we include them.
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Re: Class Struggle.

Postby Vino » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:47 am

I would suggest you change the title of this one but the class warfare theme is just so hilarious.

Any ideas of your own?

When I said "without walking" I meant without slowing down in general. Actually I admittedly stole that mechanic from CS. If you walk or crouch or stand still then your accuracy is good, if you run it turns to shit. So far of the ones I posted the ideas I think are most worth trying are that one and relying on aim-in to slow people down.

I also should have mentioned about the armor. Maybe armor can be gotten without a move speed decrease but with a draw/reload speed penalty? Maybe armor doesn't slow you down at all but instead just takes up some of your inventory slots so you can't get another weapon? Maybe everybody gets armor by default and it's not a big issue?

@Antag when you say two guns per loadout you mean max? You mean Halo style? You mean no slot system at all? You mean casual console FPS style? I think you're right in that having six pistols was dumb, but limit of two weapons is too much, I think.
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