How does melee get the close range advantage?

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How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby Vino » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:55 pm

Melee should be pretty useless, but not completely useless. In most games, if you can get close enough to use the melee strike, you're fairly guaranteed of a kill. In CS if the guy is half health, the knife strike kills him. In many games the knife stab is one hit kill no matter what. Melee should be pretty devastating close range.

But I don't want to do a one-hit-wonder for melee like most other games have. I have some ideas to make it a bit different. Instead of just a heavy damage attack, I'm thinking it should have a couple lighter damage attacks, but be disrupting to the victim in some way.

My first thought was disabling the victim so they can't fire, but we tried that in CF and it was horrible. People would just continue spamming the fire button, the fact that they were being disabled was tough for new players to register and experienced ones hated it.

My second and current thought is that it can screw with the view and the accuracy of the player. So, each hit would knock your view to one side 20-30 degrees. And then, while you're being hit, your accuracy would temporarily drop to shit. So you can keep firing but it becomes much harder to keep lead going into the right place. That combined with the extra mobility of the melee user might do the trick.

I have an idea that can be improved more though, and whatever it is, it should be subtle. Ideas?
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby TOGSolid » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:05 pm

My second and current thought is that it can screw with the view and the accuracy of the player. So, each hit would knock your view to one side 20-30 degrees. And then, while you're being hit, your accuracy would temporarily drop to shit. So you can keep firing but it becomes much harder to keep lead going into the right place. That combined with the extra mobility of the melee user might do the trick.

Sounds pretty awesome and a lot more tolerable than the old fu bullshit.
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby Shogi » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:05 pm

Vino wrote:My second and current thought is that it can screw with the view and the accuracy of the player. So, each hit would knock your view to one side 20-30 degrees. And then, while you're being hit, your accuracy would temporarily drop to shit. So you can keep firing but it becomes much harder to keep lead going into the right place. That combined with the extra mobility of the melee user might do the trick.


I agree, this is what I had in mind once we started talking about it in the other thread. A single blow isn't enough to kill (usually), but it's a setup for a combo. Only issue is we don't want the victim to feel helpless like all he can do is stand there and take the beating like he just picked a fight with Kenshiro. This can be balanced out by melee fire rate though. But what avenues of escape/retaliation do we give the victim after making his weapon basically useless? Short of running away, some sort of melee block/counter button/window/thing might be good.
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby BullHorn » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:09 pm

I hate melee, it sucks.

In my opinion is should be nerfed to a level where it is still useful up-close but not very useful if you plan to melee-only or whatever.
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby Vino » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:15 pm

I hate to suggest this, and I don't entirely like it, feel free to shoot it down.

TRP mentioned at one point fighting game mechanics. One such mechanic is that at the end of a combo, the fighters are knocked out of range. So, maybe if the last hit in a combo connects, the victim gets thrown back. This would involve both players being stuck in place for at least a moment to allow gun-dude to recover and prevent the next chain from coming immediately, which is why I don't like it. Seems like it'd interrupt the flow of things to stick people in place.

(Mind you, melee attacks should either way stick the attacker in place for a fraction of a second for each attack. This is just describing what happens at the end of the combo.)
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby Shogi » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:17 pm

I'm not opposed to it, but you have to be aware that with a pause like that, they're vulnerable to everyone else shooting at them too.
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby Wish » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:19 pm

People with no ballistic weapons whatsoever could justifiably have a slight speed boost, even over people with just a pistol in their pocket. Every little bit helps.

Having melee disorient the victim is okay, as long as it has no effect on their actual controls - there's nothing more irksome in a game than being hit with an attack that puts you in some kind of invisible stasis field for a moment or two. Total immersion breaker.

If you get in and punch me and my view sways, that's fine as long as I can dive/flip/roll away and try to shoot you. I wouldn't want this to actually effect the accuracy of my gun, just my personal accuracy. If I've got the skill to stay on target despite the melee effects, I deserve to have my shots hit.

If there's a knife I think you should be able to stab someone to death fairly quickly.

TS fu damages were only a problem because boosting made it a little too easy to get in - without boosting, those damages aren't that unreasonable.
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby Hadji|DP » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:37 pm

Vino wrote:TRP mentioned at one point fighting game mechanics. One such mechanic is that at the end of a combo, the fighters are knocked out of range. So, maybe if the last hit in a combo connects, the victim gets thrown back.


Howabout this:

5 hit combo
the first 4 hits only kick the view, and make the attacker stand still for a fraction of a second
the last 5th hit knocks the victim back, guaranteeing that the victim is disarmed, regardless of the gun being held.
HOWEVER, the last 5th hit makes the attacker stand still for a full second.
ANYTIME during the combo, the victim can dive back to break out of the combo, as long as they time it correctly (each hit would have a set amount of hitstun, a period where you CANNOT stunt out.)
Even if the attacker rapid fires the fu assault, the victim has the chance after the first 4 attacks to break out, no matter what safely without losing the gun. If the melee user fucks up and the timing is predicted, the gun user dives out and gains an opportunity to shoot for free at the fu user. The opportunity is made worse if the fu user went for the 5th hit combo.

So melee users, once they get in, would have the following options:
- Should I throw out my 5th hit or should I reset my combo and keep them guessing?
- Should I time my hits oddly so that my victim isn't sure when to stunt out of my combo?

Gun users, if they're put in this position, must then respond with:
- correct timing to stunt backward
- running away when the opportunity arises

The entire close range game becomes less about "once i get in you're fucked" and more of a "once I get in and confuse you, you no longer have a gun. Now let's fight."
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby Vino » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:09 am

Mehhhhh.

Hadji|DP wrote:ANYTIME during the combo, the victim can dive back to break out of the combo, as long as they time it correctly (each hit would have a set amount of hitstun, a period where you CANNOT stunt out.)


In my experience this just results in spamming of the button. Frustration until dive happens. Not really good design.

Hadji|DP wrote:"once I get in and confuse you, you no longer have a gun. Now let's fight."


Meehhhh. I can see this for pistols but rifles? That's forcing everybody to be a melee-er. That's like forcing everybody in TF2 to be a spy. The whole point of picking your loadout is that it's your favorite, forcing people to use other loadouts isn't cool. I'm fine with pistol -> melee because it's not much of a stretch, but smg/shotgun/rifle -> melee is a completely different play style.

Think that one needs more refinement.

Also the more I think about it the more I think disarming needs some kind of drawback, especially if we put it on its own key like we've been talking about. Seriously, what's the disadvantage to disarming someone? For all the advantages you get (lol you have no gun now) there should be some disadvantage too.
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby ThinRedPaste » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:24 am

I say we shouldnt try too hard to give melee an advantage. knock view around, possibly disarm, nothing beyond that.

after all, a shotgun is the ultimate melee weapon.
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby misanq » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:35 am

Vino wrote:Also the more I think about it the more I think disarming needs some kind of drawback, especially if we put it on its own key like we've been talking about. Seriously, what's the disadvantage to disarming someone? For all the advantages you get (lol you have no gun now) there should be some disadvantage too.

I don't think there really could be one. Frankly I think that if you're set on making Karate a primary weapon, then it needs to be quick and powerful. Sidekick in for 45 damage -> 2-3 hits more for the kill. Making it weak will enrage the fuers, making it complex will encourage fu serves, making it blow out accuracy or disorient the victim will enrage gun people.
Which ever way you go, that COD-style melee key that was banging around could do a lot to bridge the rift between melee players getting sprayed at close range and gunners having their play style dictated to them, provided that butt-stocking or knifing someone was more advantageous than trying to shoot them at close range.
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby Hadji|DP » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:39 am

Vino wrote:In my experience this just results in spamming of the button. Frustration until dive happens. Not really good design.


This design is actually used in Marvel vs. Capcom 3 in order to escape aerial combos. A player can choose to continue an air combo by choosing a direction and pressing a button. The victim escapes by correctly guessing which direction this is and pressing a button. HOWEVER players have the option of mashing on the directional stick instead of actually guessing the direction, leading them to correctly guess 33% of the time.

Certain directions in MvC3 build meter faster than other directions, so it is makes it more likely that a direction will be used over another direction. In this idea, instead of selecting a direction, players either select a timing frame (the 5th hit would come out slower than the other 4 hits) or mash on the stunt button. Since players will want to go for the 5th hit, players can predict the timing of that 5th hit and know when to escape. OR, they could mash on the stunt button and escape after one of the previous hits. The former allows skilled players to exploit the inactivity of the 5th hit, practically allowing a free kill. The latter gives players a fraction of a second to exploit the fraction of inactivity.

Vino wrote:I'm fine with pistol -> melee because it's not much of a stretch, but smg/shotgun/rifle -> melee is a completely different play style.


A "disarming hit" on smg/shotgun/rifle could instead of disarming cause a state of extreme accuracy decay for a second instead of disarming all together.

Vino wrote:Seriously, what's the disadvantage to disarming someone? For all the advantages you get (lol you have no gun now) there should be some disadvantage too.


Give disarm a LONG ASS inactivity period, especially if done outside of a combo. If it connects, great. If it doesn't, though, you're essentially dead. Keeps in line with "High Risk, High Reward" that kung fu SHOULD be.
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby TOGSolid » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:41 am

Yeah, a penalty for whiffing would do the trick. A gunner could sidestep/roll out of the way/dive/etc. and the fuer would be left open to getting shot at.
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby misanq » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:44 am

So what if the gunner had two guns?
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby ThinRedPaste » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:45 am

im more ok with getting viewpunched than disarmed, tbh.

as for disarm disadvantage - maybe another unarmed person doesnt get viewpunched? that way a gun person is somewhat easier to beat up than a forced meleer?
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