How does melee get the close range advantage?

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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby Vino » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:35 pm

Capo is cool looking but only works because of internal consistency with itself, it obviously doesn't stand up to other disciplines and that dude who tried to fight against an MMA guy was obviously retarded.

I don't know about MMA, I don't see why we can't just have a jab-jab-cross-low kick kind of thing for the melee and be done with it. I mean there's not that many variations of jabs and kicks you can get into without getting a little too fancy for our purposes right?
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby Antagonist » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:45 pm

So we gonna have unarmed fighting? Ok. Well I think that most of us have said that we are into not having any super duper special moves. We don't need to have accurate trapping-hand, clinch and grappling mechanics in the game. I think jab, cross, front kick (mb an alternate anim turns it into a side kick) and roundhouse kick are the only things we need. Some kind of block would also be beneficial. Keeping it tacticel.

Mb pressing mouse 1 & 2 (or something) together could be the disarm move, and work like the one in Hitman Bloodmoney but without stalling the other players. I have ideas for how the animation for that could work but pictures of it would be better than text.
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby Vino » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:03 pm

Yeah, if the player has no weapons he should have a few simple attacks and that's it.

I realize that any attacks we do need to work well on the move. Normally you get stuck to your place with a melee attack, but to have any hope of being at least nominal we would need melee attacks that can be done while in motion. TS did this by just having all the kicks be flying kicks where the standing foot would just pirouette.
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby Antagonist » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:22 pm

Punching and swinging guns at people is pretty easy to make look alright on the move. I think that a standig. Advancing palm strike would work good. A front kick can finish in a step forward, making it work when tweening it into the animation for running forwards. Stepping to the side while kicking could make you do roundhouse kicks in the direction you're moving. Moving back and kicking doesn't need to be a back kick but it would be cool. An alternative could be a side kick, where your guy is skipping back, so it looks like jeet kune do's retreating side kick thingy that they do (Bruce uses it in a few movies and it kind of looks like he bounces back exactly after he has snapped power into the target). It's such a tacitool move that people wouldn't even notice that it's kung fu.
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby Hadji|DP » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:20 pm

Woah. Hey. Guys. Okay. What about this:

Punches you can do on the move and are small animations. These attacks can be done in the air or crouching, but they are the same attacks.
Strong Kick stops your motion and has a longer animation. This attack can also be done in the air or crouching.
As long as you hold down the reload button while unarmed, you're blocking all melee attacks. However, your restricted to walking speed and cannot attack at all. Blocking is meant to punish the STRONG KICK when blocked. Crouch and jump attacks must be blocked while crouching or jumping, respectively.

IF there were knives it would avoid these drawbacks but have no viewkick properties. The attacks can have different animations or whatever but mechanically they are the exact same attack. Though, maybe have the air strong kick (if in air) have damage bonus dependent on velocity speed.
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby Antagonist » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:23 pm

Hmm that sounds about right. That way there would be a difference between using punches and using kicks that's not just like in TS where it was just "okay you have punches and kicks... and kicks are always preferable to use!"

But how about if you block a knife strike, some of the damage just bleeds through, like maybe half of the damage? I also think that if you time a melee strike with your weapon (or cqc knife) it would be nice if it either punished another guy who's trying to melee you, or made him bounce off you.

ProTip: show
Like yeah, so definitely keep the melee tacticool rather than Jet Li, imo. But not at the expense of fun. I mean, this is what it looks like if a movie is directed by only MMA guys and ex Polish army guys...



It pretty dumb to watch and would be kind of stiff in a game to say the least.
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby bryt » Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:36 pm

i would prefer if melee combat in general was viewed as more of a supplementary part of the gun combat and nothing more. to put it simply, it makes sense that i can smack you with my hands/gun while on the move, it makes sense that i can kick you while in range... it doesn't make sense at all for me to rely on melee combat when everyone is fighting with guns. if we allow people to get disarmed, then i would think their priority #1 would be in finding and picking up a weapon. any melee combat they do in the meantime would be meant to help keep them alive if attacked, but not meant for assaulting other players directly. not generally anyways.

so basically, i dont feel like focusing on melee as a full combat option is a good idea. but that is just my opinion. i want all parts of the game to be awesome, melee included.. i just feel like in this case less can be more. we can focus on keeping melee simple but effective and make it as awesome as possible within that scope. i dont feel like accurate melee styles are necessary at all.

that said, i do think that all of the melee combat in the game should be focused on increased player agility. after all, if you dont have a weapon (or dont plan on relying on one), then speed and maneuverability become your most valuable asset. on that note i think that low sliding kicks, forward thrusting punches, and generally any other kind of "forward moving" melee combat is what we should be aiming for. melee in our game should feel like a drive-by. get in, do damage, get out of the way before getting shot. think Mirror's Edge with emphasis.
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby Vino » Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:46 pm

bryitis wrote:melee in our game should feel like a drive-by.


You've got the bug too, huh?
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby bryt » Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:47 pm

you know me... its hard to not get the bug when games are being made.
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby Shogi » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:03 pm

Bug or no bug, I agree completely. If we stop trying to imagine melee as a functional alternative, balancing it becomes immensely easier. It doesn't necessarily become less fun either, it's perfectly good as a humiliation/last resort. Think back to all the action movies we're taking as influence. Melee was usually treated as a humiliating finisher to a drawn out gunfight, or to quickly dispense with some mook in a showy and humiliating fashion.

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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby Antagonist » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:16 pm

Yeah like that's what I think would be best too.

I'm even against disarms and going unarmed all together but I know I can't mention that here or people will spray bees all over my body.
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby Shogi » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:22 pm

The disarm is and always has been a good, viable gameplay mechanic. TS just kinda ruined it because it was far too easy in a number of ways.
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby bryt » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:30 pm

one thing that pisses me off in most FPS games is that melee is either treated as brutally lethal, or too weak to matter. one thing i think we could do is introduce a "daze" effect where the first melee hit inflicts "confusion" on the player. maybe it distorts their view or even swings them around disorientingly... but doesnt actually do much damage if at all. But if you melee someone while they are "dazed" then you have a chance at disarming them or doing brutal damage. in effect, the first melee attack would just be a primer for a beginning combo, or a strategic psyche move to help you get the upper hand in a gun fight. while perhaps a melee to the back of the skull is a quick way to do massive damage without having to daze your opponent first.

also, i realize that moving a player's view against their will is harsh consequence, but i really feel like it needs to be. besides, it wouldn't have to be much different than when you fight the recoil on your gun. you get better at dealing with it with practice.
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby Antagonist » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:32 pm

bryitis wrote:one thing that pisses me off in most FPS games is that melee is either treated as brutally lethal, or too weak to matter. one thing i think we could do is introduce a "daze" effect where the first melee hit inflicts "confusion" on the player. maybe it distorts their view or even swings them around disorientingly... but doesnt actually do much damage if at all. But if you melee someone while they are "dazed" then you have a chance at disarming them or doing brutal damage. in effect, the first melee attack would just be a primer for a beginning combo, or a strategic psyche move to help you get the upper hand in a gun fight. while perhaps a melee to the back of the skull is a quick way to do massive damage without having to daze your opponent first.

Look a few pages back. That's kind of what I suggested and if I remember correctly, most of you guys liked it.
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Re: How does melee get the close range advantage?

Postby bryt » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:33 pm

ah ok, sorry. didnt have time to read all the history. well then, i suggest what Antag said.
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