Stunts: How Could They be Changed?

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Re: Stunts: How Could They be Changed?

Postby Vino » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:57 pm

A back tuck while running backwards? Daaayum I've never seen anybody do a back tuck any way but standing still. Maybe a back layout going backwards but only after a roundoff or something.

So I decided to hold the button to stay down sot hat by default you stand back up instead of by default you lie down. I mean it's really easy either way so I guess whatever, but I feel like the action should default to standing up. It's less WTFey for new players and it keeps the action going.
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Re: Stunts: How Could They be Changed?

Postby Antagonist » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:03 pm

Vino wrote:A back tuck while running backwards? Daaayum I've never seen anybody do a back tuck any way but standing still. Maybe a back layout going backwards but only after a roundoff or something.

Well it was a game from 2001 with animations from 2001. :P I just thought the way you did the different flips felt very satisfying.
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Re: Stunts: How Could They be Changed?

Postby Shogi » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:03 pm

Wish wrote:The straight to slide idea is very attractive to me.


Agreed. In terms of animation, straight forward could be a double knee slide:
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While any other direction could be a 1 knee slide (right/left knee tucked in under body, other leg extended in direction of travel)
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But what would happen when backpedaling?

Antagonist wrote:Did anyone play Oni? In that game, moving forwards and jumping and then pressing crouch in mid air made you do a front tuck (cool front flip). If you were going in reverse, you did a back tuck.


Love it. Adds an element of strategy too in terms of hitboxes.
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Re: Stunts: How Could They be Changed?

Postby Antagonist » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:05 pm

In Oni, all the guns shot bullets from the barrel, not from your camera, so if you were flipping and your gun was going all over the place then you couldn't hit anything. If the tuck/flips were really good for dodging, then maybe it would be a good way to balance it by adding that feature or simply not allow shooting while flipping?
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Re: Stunts: How Could They be Changed?

Postby Shogi » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:09 pm

I think that was discussed, but I'd much prefer bullets kinda goin screwy.

Did we ever discuss how the camera should behave during stunts? I kinda want first person to rotate with the stunt, but that might be too disorienting or difficult. Third person should maybe stay level. And maybe this time we can have an option for "third person while stunting"
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Re: Stunts: How Could They be Changed?

Postby Antagonist » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:13 pm

Do we even need 3rd person cam? This game would be so cool if it forced mirror's edge style immersion on players. : D

However, 3rd person while stunting does kind of remind me of something that was pretty cool. Can't remember which game it was at this time though.
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Re: Stunts: How Could They be Changed?

Postby Vino » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:16 pm

I kinda want the game to stay in third person all the time. IE, no first person option at all. But I know that if I say that I will be shot down immediately so I don't say that.

I didn't say that BTW.
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Re: Stunts: How Could They be Changed?

Postby Dan » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:17 pm

Shogi wrote:I think that was discussed, but I'd much prefer bullets kinda goin screwy.

Did we ever discuss how the camera should behave during stunts? I kinda want first person to rotate with the stunt, but that might be too disorienting or difficult. Third person should maybe stay level. And maybe this time we can have an option for "third person while stunting"


The Opera had that and I thought it was near unplayable. No ridiculous camera rotation please.
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Re: Stunts: How Could They be Changed?

Postby Antagonist » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:24 pm

Vino wrote:I kinda want the game to stay in third person all the time. IE, no first person option at all. But I know that if I say that I will be shot down immediately so I don't say that.

I didn't say that BTW.

That's a pretty untried approach...

ProTip: show





it's so stupid it might work.
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Re: Stunts: How Could They be Changed?

Postby Hadji|DP » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:32 pm

Vino wrote:Moving + jump + stunt button: Dive
Moving + crouch + stunt button: Roll
Hold stunt button after dive or roll: Stay in prone (This is opposite from TS I think)
Moving + stunt button: Straight to slide
Only stunt button: Straight to prone


Its like the stunt button is less of a stunt button and more of a "keep your body horizontal" button.
but then if all stunts are the same, what happens to the advantage for pistols/light loadouts?
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Re: Stunts: How Could They be Changed?

Postby Antagonist » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:35 pm

Pistol loadouts get less clumsy stunts and further stunts? Faster climbing? Faster getting up on their feet? Longer sprint? All combined would be balancing, I think.
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Re: Stunts: How Could They be Changed?

Postby Shogi » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:38 pm

Vino wrote:I kinda want the game to stay in third person all the time. IE, no first person option at all. But I know that if I say that I will be shot down immediately so I don't say that.

I didn't say that BTW.


I'm not opposed actually. You'd actually be able to see all the cool stunt animations and it would save us the trouble of having to deal with view models too. And there's more room for cool camera tricks too. As long as it's more usable than it was in TS, it sounds good. I do see problems though, specifically with the aim in on rifles and the viewkick type stuff that was being discussed for melee but it's not unsolvable.
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Re: Stunts: How Could They be Changed?

Postby TOGSolid » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:49 pm

Vino wrote:Moving + jump + stunt button: Dive
Moving + crouch + stunt button: Roll
Hold stunt button after dive or roll: Stay in prone (This is opposite from TS I think)
Moving + stunt button: Straight to slide
Only stunt button: Straight to prone

This needs some tweaking.
Moving + jump + stunt button: Dive <---Pretty straightforward
Moving + crouch + stunt button: Roll <---My spidersense is tingling and it says there could be a momentum problem here. I may be just acting a bit overly paranoid though.
Hold stunt button after dive or roll: Stay in prone (This is opposite from TS I think) <--Excessive button pressing and counter-intuitive since it goes against ingrained muscle memory. Every other game ever just lets you get up from prone by pressing jump. Why reinvent the wheel here?
Moving + stunt button: Straight to slide <---If this is a double knee slide then I just came.
Only stunt button: Straight to prone <-- No, this will encourage CoD style dropshotting and that shit is super faggy looking.

If we leave "only stunt button" open then it could become something very context sensitive. Running next to a wall? Run into it, press stunt and hoorah, wall run! Near a ledge? Tada, mantle!

I dunno, that could be a potential coding/mapping nightmare.
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Re: Stunts: How Could They be Changed?

Postby Vino » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:51 pm

Antagonist wrote:it's so stupid it might work.


I don't get your subtlety. Are you being sarcastic?

Hadji|DP wrote:but then if all stunts are the same, what happens to the advantage for pistols/light loadouts?


I've been thinking about this. Maybe like Antag said? Maybe none and all weapons stunt the same? I dunno, we're getting too far from TS for me to be able to fit all of the new gameplay mechanisms in my head at once. At some point you get to the "let's just do it and see" point. But I'm glad to hear that there's not too much friction to it.

Shogi wrote:I do see problems though, specifically with the aim in on rifles and the viewkick type stuff that was being discussed for melee but it's not unsolvable.


Actually, we did similar things with CF that ended up working well even in third person mode. The aim in was entirely fov-based in third person and it worked fine. The view kick stuff might be a bit tougher but could still work I think.

I'm honestly surprised I'm not hearing more friction against the idea. Maybe not enough people are reading this thread.

TOG: I'll respond to that in another post
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Re: Stunts: How Could They be Changed?

Postby Vino » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:56 pm

TOGSolid wrote:momentum problem


A what?

TOGSolid wrote:Excessive button pressing and counter-intuitive since it goes against ingrained muscle memory. Every other game ever just lets you get up from prone by pressing jump. Why reinvent the wheel here?


I'm actually trying to reduce button pressing. The assumption is that you by default want to stay standing, so there's no "press stunt to go down, press stunt to get back up" all the time. If you want to go down to the ground for some reason you hold the button down. I remember when I first played TS that it was actually more cumbersome for me to be always getting back up.

TOGSolid wrote:Moving + stunt button: Straight to slide <---If this is a double knee slide then I just came.


Only if you're moving forward. In my mind though, the knee slide wouldn't last forever, if the character starts moving around he'll go to regular prone animation.

TOGSolid wrote:CoD style dropshotting


Is what?

TOGSolid wrote:Running next to a wall? Run into it, press stunt and hoorah, wall run! Near a ledge? Tada, mantle!


Yes, that's the direction it would eventually go in, but you've got to be careful as it can confuse a lot of players who are expecting to do a regular dive and end up doing a wall run just because they happened to be next to a wall that they didn't even notice.
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