EVERYDAY I'M STUNTIN

No sólo tacos y guitarras.

EVERYDAY I'M STUNTIN

Postby Wish » Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:57 pm

I'm a rebel. This thread had to happen. Better here than derailing somewhere else. Let's try to avoid the monolithic walls of text that dominate the loadout thread and make our points succinctly.

Image

I'm not super hung up on the landing prone part; my main points are the vast dive distance and the large height gain, which amounts to almost a double jump - great for pro gamersports, but not for immersion.

The thing about landing prone is that right now, if you want to land prone, you have to go through the motions of rolling first, and that's not right - if I dive with the intention of landing prone, I'm not going to roll, I'm just going to land on my abdomen. Landing prone by default with the option to hold down and roll out (with no actual prone frames) would seem to fix this.

Also the slide: if we step back, we notice that the slide only has two actual uses (other than looking cool)

1. dropping yourself vertically/making yourself a smaller target/getting behind low cover/navigating underneath low obstacles
2. putting yourself on a set moving path so that you can concentrate on aiming without being a stationary target

it also has weaknesses:

1. telegraphing your course; when you slide, everybody knows where you're going to end up
2. it's not faster than running

I'm not saying "Make the slide better" because doing so would have to stomp all over believability. I'm just pointing out that it's a highly specialized move that's dangerous to use willy-nilly.

At the moment the slide doesn't actually affect the player's height, so it can't even be used to get under low obstacles. The actual height of a player who's sliding should be somewhere between crouching and prone.

More than that, the slide needs to be able to slide over extremely low obstacles - like a 2-unit high piece of plywood lying on the floor of da_jinkies. Not realistic, but necessary for gameplay.

And stunt+crouch is not more intuitive than double-tap crouch for rolling. Not in the slightest; though the slide, once it's fixed, will actually take the place of the TS double-tap roll as the way to move evade low to the ground. They're the exact same thing, the slide just takes you farther.
User avatar
Wish
 
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:48 pm

Re: EVERYDAY I'M STUNTIN

Postby TOGSolid » Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:55 am

I was actually kinda curious if when the player dived if it was possible to set the code up so that the angle that the player is looking at determines the angle of the dive. That way the player can accurately throw his/herself through windows, through specific obstacles, etc.

As far as the slide goes, I'd kinda like to see that it stays locked to going to the sides and forward only. The entire concept of a "back slide" is just damn silly and I can't think of a single way to animate something like that. I would kinda like to keep rolls in, but mostly just for variety. Hell, it's not like we've got anything more pressing to assign to double tap crouch and I always thought they were kinda neat. That way players can have the slides for Vanquishing around the map and the rolls for quick little dodges. Nothing wrong with variety yo.
ImageImageImage
User avatar
TOGSolid
 
Posts: 1843
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:10 pm
Location: Ketchikan, Alaska

Re: EVERYDAY I'M STUNTIN

Postby Wish » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:14 am

I'm all about the double-tap roll. I'll beg for that until my last breath; I just mean in a practical sense, the slide replaces it.

As for sliding backward, think back to TS when you dive backward at a low angle and slide backward on your back; that's how you animate a backward slide. The Max Payne backward dives also give the same general idea.
User avatar
Wish
 
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:48 pm

Re: EVERYDAY I'M STUNTIN

Postby TOGSolid » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:23 am

Right, I guess it just comes down to how the slide is animated. If it's an on your knees powerslide then to have the back slide be on your back means that the hitboxes/collision detection won't make sense unless we just say fuck it and have the back slide be its own thing.

Oh and damage reduction while stunting. Y/N?
ImageImageImage
User avatar
TOGSolid
 
Posts: 1843
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:10 pm
Location: Ketchikan, Alaska

Re: EVERYDAY I'M STUNTIN

Postby Vino » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:21 am

Wish makes many good points.

Wish wrote:The thing about landing prone is that right now, if you want to land prone, you have to go through the motions of rolling first, and that's not right


You're right. This was an oversight in the original implementation. Right now if you hold the stunt button at the end of the dive it goes to prone after the roll. It should go to prone at the end of the dive and skip the roll.

I want to spend a longer amount of time with the stunts defaulting to standing up at the end to test that and see how it works more. Some people have asked for some stunts to land on the ground and we can try that out too. Some play testing will help with this.

Wish wrote:Also the slide: if we step back, we notice that the slide only has two actual uses (other than looking cool)

1. dropping yourself vertically/making yourself a smaller target/getting behind low cover/navigating underneath low obstacles
2. putting yourself on a set moving path so that you can concentrate on aiming without being a stationary target


3. Filling the universal meter bar thingie that stores up energy for your selected powerup.

Wish wrote:At the moment the slide doesn't actually affect the player's height, so it can't even be used to get under low obstacles.


I think it's actually the crouching height right now. But yes, it should be lower, I think it should maybe be lower even than crouching.

Wish wrote:More than that, the slide needs to be able to slide over extremely low obstacles - like a 2-unit high piece of plywood lying on the floor of da_jinkies. Not realistic, but necessary for gameplay.


I'm still on the fence about this. Sliding up stairs or over steps doesn't make any sense. Sliding up ramps does make sense and I'm going to implement that. Perhaps those plywood pieces should be set to func_illusion so the player doesn't collide with them at all? Perhaps they should be BREAKABLES?!? (I will make the slide go through breakables at some point.)

Wish wrote:And stunt+crouch is not more intuitive than double-tap crouch for rolling.


I agree - they both suck. I'm going to implement double-tap crouch rolling as well, but really I don't care because sliding is better.

TOGSolid wrote:I was actually kinda curious if when the player dived if it was possible to set the code up so that the angle that the player is looking at determines the angle of the dive.


That sounds good in your head but I think usability for it would be tough. A better approach is to look at the typical height that the player expects to clear while diving, which is about what is eye-level when at the top of a jump, and design the dive so that it goes through a hole at that height. If that fails we'll look at other solutions.

TOGSolid wrote:Oh and damage reduction while stunting. Y/N?


Leaning towards N. Stunting fills up your meter - if you choose the health recharge skill then it'll have that same effect. Otherwise there are health pickups and perhaps a slow and gradual health recharge over time. I'm willing to try out a damage reduction as well but I feel like if a player is playing with stunts and getting gobs of meter like that then we don't need to duplicate that effect with defense benefits, which in my experience tend to randomize the experience, and not in a good way. IE generally if you aim for someone's head they should die pretty quick, that rule gets broken and the attacker gets frustrated if some of those rules don't always hold true.
[ Tw | Fb | G+ ]
User avatar
Vino
We'll see
 
Posts: 3976
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 7:25 pm
Location: Cary, NC

Re: EVERYDAY I'M STUNTIN

Postby misanq » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:52 am

This is on a slight tangent, but the 'jump then dive' thing seems a bit wonky in my opinion, especially since you've got that spit second where your hitboxes are still completely vertical and crying out for enemy bullets.
User avatar
misanq
 
Posts: 1007
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:45 am

Re: EVERYDAY I'M STUNTIN

Postby Antagonist » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:44 am

misanq wrote:This is on a slight tangent, but the 'jump then dive' thing seems a bit wonky in my opinion, especially since you've got that spit second where your hitboxes are still completely vertical and crying out for enemy bullets.

Yeah I sort of experience that too. I liked the system TS had where your diving followed your crosshairs so I hope that's not patented by morfeocorp.
Image
[Stink.inc | Antagonist]
User avatar
Antagonist
 
Posts: 2247
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: in yo stupid face

Re: EVERYDAY I'M STUNTIN

Postby Shogi » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:01 am

Side note about slides, we should include places on maps that increase slide distance like oil slicks, ice, etc.
Image
User avatar
Shogi
 
Posts: 1374
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:02 pm

Re: EVERYDAY I'M STUNTIN

Postby Antagonist » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:25 am

Friction gel. That would make a good power up.
Image
[Stink.inc | Antagonist]
User avatar
Antagonist
 
Posts: 2247
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: in yo stupid face

Re: EVERYDAY I'M STUNTIN

Postby Wish » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:37 am

@Vino regarding sliding over things

I agree. func_illusion would be fine; I'll see to it. Right on.
User avatar
Wish
 
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:48 pm

Re: EVERYDAY I'M STUNTIN

Postby ThinRedPaste » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:10 pm

just had a thought. Now that there are dives and rolls and slides animated, what if you could combo the dive into the slide? like how stunting and holding stunt makes him dive to prone, what if stunt and hold crouch makes him roll into the slide? the animations wouldnt be too tough to make.

hell, or even replace the dive to prone with this. Can't see any real reason to be prone for more than a second or two in this game anyway.
Fuck this shit, I'm going to bed.
User avatar
ThinRedPaste
 
Posts: 987
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:18 pm

Re: EVERYDAY I'M STUNTIN

Postby Vino » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:16 am

Yeah, I like the idea of dive to prone going to the slide instead. I'll play around with it next version and see what I can do :)
[ Tw | Fb | G+ ]
User avatar
Vino
We'll see
 
Posts: 3976
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 7:25 pm
Location: Cary, NC

Re: EVERYDAY I'M STUNTIN

Postby Hadji|DP » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:29 pm

I think its odd that we're introducing a new movement style for a stance that's lower than crouching stance in a first person shooter. In most FPSes, the prone stance is a highly immobile position that increases accuracy at the expense of mobility. It seems we're throwing that out in favor of a stance that goes under obstacles, reduces your vertical hitbox, and retains mobility at the expense of varied directional movement.

We can think of four stance available in the game at this time. They all have their own movements. They are:

Standing position:
The most varied of all movements, and the fastest and where you spend most of your time. Your hitbox is the most vulnerable at this moment.
- You can only run in this position, but you can choose which direction you'd like to run and change this at any time

Crouching position:
At the expense of speed, your hitbox is reduced.
- You can only crouchwalk in this position

Air position
Any movement that has the player in the air.
- You can jump to get into this position, and can control the direction of your jump and have a degree of air control
- Dives allow you to change your jump direction, or change your hitbox into a fast horizontal-moving target, at the expense of air control. the dive movement is faster than running movement, but ultimately

Ground position
The most reduced of hitboxes, but at the same time most immobile. To recover from the ground position into any of the other position leaves players totally immobile for a period
- Prone movement is the most immobile
- Sliding, although faster than crouchwalking, is slower than running but goes under obstacles crouching would not get underneath. However, your movement is not varied, and you move only in one direction.

If we break up movement and motion we can easily decide what kind of options we want available to players for each separate stance and optimize stunts to follow some sort of guiding principle, instead of throwing a multitude of stunts that in reality do the same thing. We can even optimize it in a way where gun categorizes are naturally proficient in certain stances.
User avatar
Hadji|DP
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:10 pm

Re: EVERYDAY I'M STUNTIN

Postby DragonNinja » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:51 pm

This isn't Battlefield, so having a slow prone can go out the window.
Image
User avatar
DragonNinja
 
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:51 am

Re: EVERYDAY I'M STUNTIN

Postby Antagonist » Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:09 pm

I agree. We're playing as these characters with incredible strength, endurance and flexibility. Just like in an action movie. They shouldn't be stopped by shit that stops the average Joe. I appreciate that you're wanting to make the differences between the stances a little bigger. I just think that if it takes more than a second to get up from prone, it's going to feel really slow. Especially if you're immobile right after standing up.

Plus, it may not even be realistic to have your guy get up from the ground as slow as a fucking turtle. If you're fit, you can stand up really fast, without even putting a hand on the floor. Fuck, I could do that while wearing CBRN gear, vest full of stuff and holding a SAW and I'm just an ordinary guy. The guys in the game are Speci-- I mean doublemen.
Image
[Stink.inc | Antagonist]
User avatar
Antagonist
 
Posts: 2247
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: in yo stupid face

Next

Return to Double Action Development

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron