EVERY DAY I'M SHOOTAN

No sólo tacos y guitarras.

EVERY DAY I'M SHOOTAN

Postby Antagonist » Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:46 pm

I just thought I would move the discussion of balancing weapons out of the weight-system thread.

It was mentioned in the weight-system thread that it would be possible to have fictional weapons in Action Boogaloo. This is a good point but I think that it would be preferable if we had real world weapons in the game, because that just looks and feels more cool and actiony. They don't have to accurately function like the guns they are supposed to be; just really, really feel like they do when you play!

TS' idea of having gun damages close to the numbers in the cartridge sizes (this was scrapped as of 2.0) was very fun but it didn't really work when it had to be balanced together with every other element of the game. One major issue was SMGs and shotguns vs assault rifles (because the rifles always did the job better even though they made you slower). Having an AK47 that deals 76 dmg just because it has a 7.62 cartridge sounds fun but there is no way to balance that kind of gun if it's not a realism sim.

I think that there should be a reasonable attention to realism without making all the guns as powerful as in operation flashpoint. There needs to be enough realism that you can kill with a only a few bullets, or the game turns out like a lot of death match shooters where your machine gun is actually only a joke weapon that deals 5 dmg per bullet.

I think that we should have many different guns, yes, but not to the point where they are just different for the sake of being different. One thing that worries me about having the Kriss Super V in the game is that in order for it to feel like it is the gun from real life, we need to make it have no recoil but a lot of power due to the .45 cartridge it uses. This kind of gun sounds like an awful pain to balance even though it's a really cool gun.

I sort of had an idea. I think that a great place to start when balancing damages might be to set up a basic damage table for the different cartridges we might use in the game. This will help us focus on "which three initial guns do we need in every category?" instead of "which would be mean looking guns to have?" Three different cartridges for each category, no specific guns mentioned; and then think of which three specific guns for each category (pistol, smg, shotgun, rifle) in the gun suggestion thread would be fitting (keep it growing). : )

Here is some shit to get something started in here (Google docs link!):
My initial thoughts on weapon balance

You may notice that SMGs are grouped with pistols. I'm counting on SMGs have a greater potential to miss the target because of the proposed accuracy decay. I group the two categories because I do not think that it feels believable that the same cartridge will behave so differently when it is fired from a SMG which will generally have a longer barrel than a pistol. I think that once you factor in accuracy decay and view kick (if any?) it could work out to have average damag on SMGs instead of low.

If you have a completely different idea about how to do this, then by all means post it!
Last edited by Antagonist on Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: EVERY DAY I'M SHOOTAN

Postby TOGSolid » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:34 am

To carry on from the other thread:
I don't think we want LOLREALISM guns because this isn't a tac shooter and that would make autos da best. But we do want the guns to feel right. When you pick up a rifle it should feel like a rifle, a pistol should feel like a pistol. The immersion factor is pretty important to maintain. If we made everything lolrealistic though, it would fuck things up kinda bad but it is entirely possible to just exaggerate a gun's characteristics and then fuck with the damage and still have it feel good. Picking the right real world guns to fit the roll we're trying to fill is definitely the best idea. So yeah, no Kriss Super Vs or they'll be super OP.

My rough ideas:
Pistols: Very maneuverable, can do basically everything with no penalties. Accurate as all fuck. High damage. Damage falloff should occur after medium range.

SMGs: Decently maneuverable, loses accuracy when stunting but not when just running around. Iffy starting accuracy, loses accuracy with sustained spam. Low damage. These things should be close range spam cannons. Damage falloff should occur after short range.

Rifles: Shit maneuverability. Loses accuracy if doing anything but standing/walking. Great starting accuracy if the player is standing/walking but needs to be burst fired to maintain accuracy. Medium damage. No damage fall off.

This was just sort of a quick brainstorm, but you get the idea. By breaking the guns up by maneuverability it'll help alleviate some of the need to balance via weight. A pistoleer, by default, is going to be rocking cocks while stunting. By sorting the guns into distance classes, it helps define their roles further and allows rifles to rule at long range without giving them stupid amounts of damage.
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Re: EVERY DAY I'M SHOOTAN

Postby Vino » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:00 am

Three things.

1) Upload that weapon shit to Google Docs. An .xls on a file download service is unacceptable.
2) If you want me to read your entire post you need to be more concise when posting. I don't have time to read novels.
3) This is a non-issue. We already decided on a weapon balance that I placed in the feature list. It is as so:

Pistols:
Damage: average
Speed: high
ROF: low
Aim-in: no advantage

SMGs:
Damage: low
Speed: med
ROF: high
Aim-in: no advantage

Shotguns:
Damage: high
Speed: med
ROF: low
Aim-in: accuracy advantage

Rifles:
Damage: high
Speed: low
ROF: high
Aim-in: accuracy advantage

Any further discussion is pointless until the weapons are in the game. If you guys have a problem with the weapon balance ideas listed above then we can discuss that, but anything more specific is futile. After we finalize the recoil mechanisms it will have to be basically done from scratch and tweaked as we go.
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Re: EVERY DAY I'M SHOOTAN

Postby misanq » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:04 am

What are your are your current ideas for the recoil mechanisms?
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Re: EVERY DAY I'M SHOOTAN

Postby Antagonist » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:41 am

I forget, Vino. There was just so much talk about gun balance in the weight/slots/speed thread that I thought there was a need for another thread for that so it didn't get derailed further. Lock it if this is illegal : (
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Re: EVERY DAY I'M SHOOTAN

Postby Shogi » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:14 am

Well it seems like the obvious next step is make some final decisions on which guns go in. I think we argued about it months ago, but ideally I think we need 2 guns from each weapon class to balance against each other (to get an idea of the spectrum) and other classes. That's 8 total. Which specific guns they are doesn't matter that much, so long as they represent two extremes/sub-types in each class.

Or we could go with just 1 from each class that represents the average, but I think that may make balancing more guns in the future......interesting.
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Re: EVERY DAY I'M SHOOTAN

Postby Antagonist » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:24 am

I now uploaded a reworked sheat to google docs in my original post. Sup?
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Re: EVERY DAY I'M SHOOTAN

Postby Locke » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:33 am

I take fun game above realistic guns each and every day. I don't care about gun realism because I don't know shit about guns and I don't think most people do either because most people have no use for guns ever. Those who do, do so just because they are technology fetishists like hi-fi crazies or camera fucknuts (generally 50+ males) and they will never be satisfied with anything ever. Their drive is over shining their neighbor and that doesn't end when we're living in the global village.

That being said, I wouldn't have like The Specialists as much if it had Nexuiz guns because I care about feeling like an action hero. Realistic weapons will always help in the game make me feel like Castor but there's no need to go beyond action film quality.

If you cringe when you see ejection ports on the wrong side of a pistol you must understand that you are a minority and whatever inconvenience your knowledge have landed you in should be countered by the ridiculous superiority you can feel over your fellow men.
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Re: EVERY DAY I'M SHOOTAN

Postby Vino » Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:11 pm

Nothing is "illegal" I just would rather not cover the same ground twice.

My thoughts on weapon balance are to duplicate the technique of 3.0. Not the balance, just the way it was implemented. It was a good system that was used poorly and I see no need to innovate here. There were two parts to recoil, there was the "return to center" part like most shooters use these days and the "don't return to center" part like DOD had. Combine them together and you can mix and match them for different kinds of weapon recoil.

For example, if you have a value of "10" in the "return" recoil and a value of "10" in the "no return" recoil, then the weapon will recoil "20" but return "10" of it. For pistols you might have a lot of "return" recoil and not a lot of "no return" but for rifles it'd be the other way around.
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Re: EVERY DAY I'M SHOOTAN

Postby Antagonist » Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:18 pm

Yeah the sheat I have made kind of looks like 3.0 weapon configs tbh. It worked, it's just the problem was that everyone cared more about optimizing their own favorite. Since we don't have any favorites yet, I thought it'd be a neutral place to start.
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Re: EVERY DAY I'M SHOOTAN

Postby Sif » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:15 pm

Locke wrote:I take fun game above realistic guns each and every day. I don't care about gun realism because I don't know shit about guns and I don't think most people do either because most people have no use for guns ever. Those who do, do so just because they are technology fetishists like hi-fi crazies or camera fucknuts (generally 50+ males) and they will never be satisfied with anything ever. Their drive is over shining their neighbor and that doesn't end when we're living in the global village.

That being said, I wouldn't have like The Specialists as much if it had Nexuiz guns because I care about feeling like an action hero. Realistic weapons will always help in the game make me feel like Castor but there's no need to go beyond action film quality.

If you cringe when you see ejection ports on the wrong side of a pistol you must understand that you are a minority and whatever inconvenience your knowledge have landed you in should be countered by the ridiculous superiority you can feel over your fellow men.


Truthfully studios that put ejection ports on the wrong side are just massively lazy, never had a problem saying that. They figure 'OOH LOOK AT OUR ANIMATIONS OF THE BULLETS COMING OUT THE EJECTION PORT' while hot brass is flying in your face. Authenticity matters, I don't expect every single detail but for fuck sakes let's not sacrifice quality for quantity.
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Re: EVERY DAY I'M SHOOTAN

Postby TOGSolid » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:37 am

Didn't everyone learn from the fucking mac-10 that balancing high damage with high recoil never fucking works? Wasn't that lesson driven home the LAST time we tried to balance rifles?

Why are we doing it again?

Shotguns have an aim in advantange? What, the spread magically gets tighter?
I take fun game above realistic guns each and every day

Pretty much. As long as the guns feel good then I don't care if the rifles shoot poison coated tic tacs and the pistols launched flaming teddy bears. I just want to be like "fuck yeah" when I pull the trigger. That's why I'm totally ok with the rifles not doing massive amounts of damage. If we have each gun class fit a role, then it helps keep balancing issues to a minimum. Hence why my rough outline is shaped the way it is. Pistols are maneuverable jack of all trade guns, SMGs are upclose fuck your face guns, rifles are precision long range guns, and I left shotguns off cause those are pretty self explanatory.
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Re: EVERY DAY I'M SHOOTAN

Postby Antagonist » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:55 am

Shotguns have an aim advantage up close. They don't need to have accuracy decay do they? Would it seem fair or realistic that for every shell you fire, the spread (talking bout that pellet spread) gets even worse? That would make it seem like the barrel blew up and became a bigger funnel with every shot.

When I say accuracy decay, I'm talking about the kind of thing that was implemented in 3.0 but not used on the guns that actually needed it. If smgs had accuracy decay instead of just view kick, it would be less a matter of learning how to move your mouse back to the center and more a matter of "so after 15 rounds, this gun doesn't shoot straight at all anymore? Well okay guess I'll burst."
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Re: EVERY DAY I'M SHOOTAN

Postby misanq » Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:30 am

TOGSolid wrote:Shotguns have an aim in advantange? What, the spread magically gets tighter?

They have less recoil.

I don't think aim-in really makes sense for shotguns from a gameplay standpoint since their two main weaknesses are range and ROF rather than recoil, so anything that inhibits your ability to get into or stay in range or prevents you from avoiding bullets while your man pumps another shell is a significant disadvantage. More so, unless you're talking about some pretty serious recoil, recoil really isn't a serious problem for a weapon with fire rate as a low as a shogun, since you have so much time to re-aim. Take for instance the way that most people would use the spas and benelli in the higher recoil semi-auto mode rather than the pump mode and you can kind of see what I'm talking about.

A different idea could be to make the aim-in button more of a 'special ability button' that allowed large automatics improved accuracy and pistols and shotguns to sprint. For machine pistols like the uzi or tmp you (the dev) could presumably choose whether a specific weapon allow sprint or aim-in (with two handed grip or whatever) depending on what worked best for each weapon balance-wise.
Now you might think that that would create balance issues where a player could pistol sprint up to a player and then spray them with automatic fire, but I figure that if you pull a call of duty and make switching to heavy weapons take a relatively long time, that sort of tactic would be less effective.
I know a lot of people were in favour of a universal sprint key, but if you think about it, doing it this way is an easy way to give light loadouts a speed advantage (and a hitbox advantage if you give the sprint a bit of a forward lean) without too heavily impacting heavy loadouts.

You could even take it further and do something like give the player a choice between a semi-auto shotgun with aim-in and a tight spread (e.g. the Benelli M4) and a pump only shotgun with sprint and a wider spread (e.g. an Ithaca 37).
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Re: EVERY DAY I'M SHOOTAN

Postby Vino » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:00 pm

I was actually thinking of making the shotgun have a little bit faster rate of fire while aiming in. Combined with less recoil it could make it pretty beastly while aiming in.
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