EVERYDAY I'M HATIN'

No sólo tacos y guitarras.

EVERYDAY I'M HATIN'

Postby misanq » Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:33 am

This is going to be a long thread with several ideas, so pace yourself and remember to drink plenty of water.



1) Anti-camping mechanics.


The Problem:
The fundamental problem I saw with this idea in the other thread is that you guys are assuming that camping = standing still and moving = pr0skills. If a camper is aware that standing still will reward them less meter, they aren't necessarily going to decide to start running around; especially if their weapon has terrible accuracy or range. If you put yourself in the dbag mindset of a career camper, a more preferable tactic would be to just do a little dance in your camping spot or patrol the choke points of the area (I've already shotgunned the two warehouses in megachat, so get out).
This is doubly a problem, since if you go with the other obvious solution and penalize people for staying within a certain radius for x seconds or whatnot, you run a high risk of either being ineffective or penalizing legitimate shootouts as often as campers.

One solution:
If you want to eliminate or at-least reduce camping, you need to think of strategies to eliminate the advantages that make camping an effective way to kill people. The most obvious way to do this is to either eliminate or at least be generous with any sort of movement penalties for smgs and assault rifles so that players are less inclined to try to fight only in closed in areas where stunting, range and accuracy aren't issues. Of course, that is a fairly contentious issue at the moment with it's own potential for problems, but I don't think that there are too many other ways to do it.



2) Stunting accuracy bonuses.


The Problem:
ProTip: show
Image

As you can see from figure 1, it's probable that an accuracy bonus for stunting will encourage some rifle users to dive constantly like an AK wielding rabbit as an alternative to camping. What's worse, trying to punish that sort of behavior with a cool down on stunting risks pushing players back towards camping again.

One solution:
As before, the obvious solution is a fairly controversial one. Dropping the stunt bonus and limiting accuracy blowout while moving and stunting to a degree that encourages movement over camping without being too powerful. I figure that you (vino) already want that sort of balance, however I feel that stunting bonuses are not the way to go about it.



3) Meter bonuses for stunting


The problem:
In giving stunting an ability meter bonus you risk encouraging the old TS tactics of stunting at all times and the much loved dive-into-people's-faces-point-blank-for-mad-bonuses, both of which are presumably undesirable.

Two solutions:
A) An initial solution could be to extend the meter bonus for a second or two after a stunt (for all weapon types) so that players are less inclined to stunt constantly. A simple numerical multiplier or bonus bar beside the ability bar would be a practical way of informing the player about the mechanic. This would also theoretically make rolling a far more useful stunt.

B) A later solution could involve rewarding the player for additional types of 'style' such as headshots, killing stunting enemies, long range kills with short range weapons. This could be accomplished as simply by adding additional multipliers to the stunt bonus or quite extravagantly with a leveled style-bar (think devil may cry) and/or floating text announcements describing the player's style level and style actions (a la bulletstorm). Additionally, an extra layer of tension could be added by having the the multiplier decay over a few seconds with any lower-bonus kills during the decay window receiving a higher bonus.

If you want to visualize how the basic mechanics of this this might work, consider this:

ProTip: show
A single kill is worth half a pip.
The stunt envelope adds a 1x multiplier.
A headshot adds 0.5 multiplier.
Killing a stunting player adds a 0.5 multiplier.
A long range kill adds a 0.5 multiplier. (Potentially this could be bumped to 1x and made mutually exclusive with the stunt bonus to save players from having to stunt solely for the bonus.)
A long range kill with a shotgun or smg adds a 0.5x multiplier/half a pip.
Killing a player who has tripped whatever anti-camping system that might exist adds a 1x multiplier.

So a sliding kill would be worth one pip.
A diving headshot against another player would reward one and a half pips.
Killing a diving player after coming out of a roll would reward one and a half pips.
A long range headshot with a shotgun while diving against a camping player who just launched into a dive would detonate a nuclear bomb, ending the round.


Ideally, a system similar to this would reward players for using stunts without necessarily pushing them towards artificial actions such as constantly diving or diving into someone’s chest at the end of a fight, while also rewarding particularly good (or lucky) kills with tangible benefits in addition to colorful numbers and amusing movie-related puns.



4) The meter abilities.


The problem:
This particular problem hinges on the assumption that the there are currently no plans for health pick ups or regenerating health and that the health ability will permanently award health.
With that in mind, I am going to suggest that the health regen ability will be arguably the most desirable ability simply because a few seconds of speed or slow lasts only a few seconds, while not dying is often a much less transitory proposition. This is especially true when you're a bullet or two away from dying, which is quite common after killing +4 people in a row and even a bonus as small as 20hp is quite a bit when you have 10 left.


One solution:
The obvious solution is health pickups, of course. However, as much as some people loath the idea, I would suggest (again, I think) working with a regenerating health system, not only because it's what's popular, but because a DM centric game is (atleast in my opinion) much more fair and fun if players has a reasonable chance to go into every fight with full health instead of 5. With this sort of system the health ability could instantly restore 20-25% hp per pip giving the player the same sort of short term advantage that abilities like slowmo and speed provide. Think about it.

Also and I don't want to write much more, since this is too long already, but does anyone else think that the melee ability sounds a bit crap?
User avatar
misanq
 
Posts: 1007
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:45 am

Re: EVERYDAY I'M HATIN'

Postby TOGSolid » Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:14 am

1.) These are still in their infancy and are in need of further discussion. You've got some good points here but in the end, though, I think the whole "eliminating camping" is going to be a pipe dream. Haters gonna hate, playa's gonna play, and camper's gonna camp. It's just the way shooters are and save for artillery barrages and grenade spam, there ain't a whole lot that will get a camper to move and even when you do dislodge them they tend to run right back to the same spot (see: Bad Company 2 - Even an artillery strike won't deter them).

Mucking with the accuracy of the autos isn't gonna totally kill camping cause then players are just gonna whore the pistols instead.
If you want to eliminate or at-least reduce camping, you need to think of strategies to eliminate the advantages that make camping an effective way to kill people.

Honestly, it's only an effective tactic because newbies love to blindly run into the same spot over and over and then blame the camper instead of themselves. Any decent player is just gonna use the tools at their disposal/map knowledge to pull the camper out of their spot.

2.) An actual accuracy bonus while stunting is just a bad idea through and through. One of my big problems in TS is that people always seem to be under the delusion that there needs to be some sort of bonus or incentive to stunt which only leads to a ton of problems. Stunting's advantages should entirely be under the mobility catagory. Getting to places, dodging gunfire, and most importantly, looking fucking cool. What people seem to miss is that when someone is airborn in a stunt, depending on the angle of the stunt, the available hitboxes that the opponent has to shoot at suddenly shrink and the stunter is presenting a smaller target. Stunts shouldn't be something done all day every day just because you get more points or they give you some sort of bonus. They should exist as mobility options to help players get around maps, get behind cover, etc.

Just like they are in every action movie ever.

So yeah, fuck giving stunts some sorta damage protection/accuracy buff. When used correctly, a good stunt should give you all the advantages you'd need. Otherwise you end up with the classic TS problem of people diving head first into other people just for easy stunt kills.

3.) That system you suggest isn't a bad one and is worth exploring further. We could also steal a concept from Tony Hawk in that if you do too much of the same shit in a row, you get less points for it. This would instantly make repeated stunting a crap idea and force the player to mix up their actions if they want to maximize their meter gain.

4.)
I would suggest (again, I think) working with a regenerating health system, not only because it's what's popular, but because a DM centric game is (atleast in my opinion) much more fair and fun if players has a reasonable chance to go into every fight with full health instead of 5.

This would be my second time bringing this up as well: A Far Cry 2/Chronicle of Riddick style health system would be super neato in a game like this. It provides a great blend of regeneration and punishment if you get shot the fuck up. The meter could be used to do a full heal, or we could just have first aid kits on the walls here and there.

but does anyone else think that the melee ability sounds a bit crap?

Yep.

All I really would like to see for melee are some throwable knives and that suggested universal pick up item that a mapper could turn into a baseball bat/2x4/lead pipe/etc. That whole kung fu and disarming mess was just absolutely redonkulous in TS.

I am, however, biased due to my burning hatred for TS's old melee and disarm system.
ImageImageImage
User avatar
TOGSolid
 
Posts: 1843
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:10 pm
Location: Ketchikan, Alaska

Re: EVERYDAY I'M HATIN'

Postby Antagonist » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:23 am

Melee hating

I see a lot of hate on melee and I agree with most of it. I still believe that there needs to be some sort of melee system for immersion's sake. It just feels gay to play games where you have no option to kill other players unless you have ammo. If we make a game like that, we'd need something like what Quake 2 had with the blaster that had unlimited ammo.

I think just a simple melee option which is basically stolen from MGS (without the ability to throw enemies over your shoulder). Just have a melee button and when you use it, your guy can make a three hit combo. If he hits once, he can hit two more times in a row, then there's a cooldown so you can't just swing your fists everywhere. If you miss with a combo, your ass will be grass because of the cooldown. If you hit all three times, the other guy should like die or something. I'm not even sure that it should factor into the "real health" of players.

There should be no range advantage to melee, flying, lunging or anything else. In TS, you could fly over to enemies and it sucked dick once everyone combined that with boosting. I think that melee was already kind of powerful in TS before you could do flying kicks all over the map. Coupled with disarms, this really sucked Voldemort.

If anything fancy should happen when you're hit with melee, it should definitely not be a disarm. The coolest "bonus feature" I can think of that would still be balanced would be that melee attacks make the crosshairs move away (so you don't instantly get shot every time you melee). If anything else, there could possibly be a sliding melee move that causes other players to fall and have a cooldown before they can shoot again. It would make sense, because you can already cause physics objects to fall over when you slide into them. It would look gay if you're able to slide through a pile of barrels, but then just stop dead in your tracks when you slide into someone. Colliding sliding players would become a hilarious possibility.

Melee assassinations are always a cool thing but insta kill melee should never be possible from the front or sides of another player. Then again, even if it's just from the back, it sort of sucks if any kind of bug in the system can be exploited so it needs to be super proof from that shit. If there was a move that you can use when dropping down on people above, then it should be insta kill (like when you land on someone and press melee from behind (and/or above) in Halo: Reach or Crysis 2) just because it would look queer if it wasn't. No special animations for melee kills are really needed. Just a smack with the gun to the back of the other guy's head and let the physics engine handle the rest.

I think it presents a system where melee isn't its own thing. It's harder to kill with melee than it is to kill with guns, but it may have advantages in short range. Not being one hit kill from the front makes it less powerful than the sliding knife stabs from later COD games but if being punched causes your crosshairs to spin or something, it could still be worth using if you're caught reloading within arms length of another monster. If special weapons like knives could be used, then they should just abide by the same rules as regular melee but with extra damage or something. Nothing fancy like "butterflying" from GUNZ happening just because you have a sword up.
Image
[Stink.inc | Antagonist]
User avatar
Antagonist
 
Posts: 2247
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: in yo stupid face

Re: EVERYDAY I'M HATIN'

Postby Vino » Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:42 pm

I think we're wearing out this everyday thing.

misanq wrote:
ProTip: show
Image



I don't think I ever said there would be a meter penalty for aiming in with the rifle. If anything there'd be a bonus for it, although not as much as if they were stunting.

misanq wrote:In giving stunting an ability meter bonus you risk encouraging the old TS tactics of stunting at all times and the much loved dive-into-people's-faces-point-blank-for-mad-bonuses, both of which are presumably undesirable.


Is this really so bad? I mean, we want people to be stunting don't we? That's the whole point I think. I agree with your solution here though.

misanq wrote:A simple numerical multiplier or bonus bar beside the ability bar would be a practical way of informing the player about the mechanic.


Me likey.

misanq wrote:With that in mind, I am going to suggest that the health regen ability will be arguably the most desirable ability simply because a few seconds of speed or slow lasts only a few seconds, while not dying is often a much less transitory proposition.


That's funny, Feixeno said the same thing. My response to him and you is:

1) It's really quite easy to balance something like a health regen ability. You make it give less health and you make the others more effective. It's already only going to be active for a few seconds while the meter runs down.
2) I'm thinking of giving all players a slow regen, which would mean having a specific regen ability isn't as desirable and good players can stay alive longer.


And lastly, as I've been saying before, we've barely started testing out stunts and you're already talking about weapon balance and shit. It's a little bit premature, kinda like Grunty's orgasms. Once we have the system in the game then we'll see how it plays. The best time to work this stuff out is when we have good playtesting data.
[ Tw | Fb | G+ ]
User avatar
Vino
We'll see
 
Posts: 3976
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 7:25 pm
Location: Cary, NC

Re: EVERYDAY I'M HATIN'

Postby Semertzides » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:20 pm

I still don't understand why you'd want to add any sort of Anti Camping mesures. It's not like it's ever been a problem in Deathmatch games. If someone wants to hide in a corner so be it, he'll probably be an easier target anyway.
Semertzides
 
Posts: 1936
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:48 pm

Re: EVERYDAY I'M HATIN'

Postby misanq » Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:56 am

When I said melee ability I actually meant the meter ability that makes you hit harder. I dare say that even for a fuer that ability is just going to suck compared to health or speed.

TOGSolid wrote: We could also steal a concept from Tony Hawk in that if you do too much of the same shit in a row, you get less points for it. This would instantly make repeated stunting a crap idea and force the player to mix up their actions if they want to maximize their meter gain.

I actually considered suggesting that, but I didn't think anyone would go for it on account of it forcing you into moves to optimize your meter building.

Vino wrote:1) It's really quite easy to balance something like a health regen ability. You make it give less health and you make the others more effective. It's already only going to be active for a few seconds while the meter runs down.

But is it really? I have a feeling that the line between it being the best ability and being too weak for anyone to bother with will be razor sharp. Either way, I guess this is a bit too early like you say.
User avatar
misanq
 
Posts: 1007
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:45 am

Re: EVERYDAY I'M HATIN'

Postby TOGSolid » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:08 pm

misanq wrote:When I said melee ability I actually meant the meter ability that makes you hit harder. I dare say that even for a fuer that ability is just going to suck compared to health or speed.

Yeah, I know, I'm just saying that I really don't want anything more for melee beyond a very basic setup and that includes having no repeatable powerups of any kind. I'm really trying to avoid the bullshit that ALWAYS happens when you have anything even close to resembling a potentially viable melee system, even if it is just a lead pipe and a meter based powerup. Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast/Academy and The Specialists were both proofs of this: If melee is even remotely viable as a standalone weapon then you will attract a bunch of complete faggots that will turn your servers into total, unfriendly clusterfucks and will endlessly whine about everyone else using guns.

I actually considered suggesting that, but I didn't think anyone would go for it on account of it forcing you into moves to optimize your meter building.
It'd really depend on how many moves we have available and what we could make count for points. We could also play it really simple and loose so that as long as you do something different between your two identical stunt kills (and by stunt kills I mean two identical stunts in a row, not a multikill during a single stunt) then the second one will still count for full points.

Side note: I'm a big fan of throwing ideas at the wall, no matter how silly, and seeing what sticks.
ImageImageImage
User avatar
TOGSolid
 
Posts: 1843
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:10 pm
Location: Ketchikan, Alaska


Return to Double Action Development

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron