SMGs and DA

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SMGs and DA

Postby ThinRedPaste » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:44 pm

I don't think they go together. We've got that mp5k in the game now, and tbh I think we should drop it.

My reasoning is thus:
We've got a concept that basically creates two playstyles (pistolars vs roflmen) and kind of pits them against each other (game mode idea?). No matter how you slice it, an SMG will end up being treated as a middle of the road weapon class. That's the LAST thing we want. We should polarize the weapons as much as we can, because otherwise we'll wind up with weapons that can either do everything or nothing. Either way, it breaks the game. We don't want that. The whole idea, as I understand it, is to have the roflmen at a large advantage in terms of weaponry and damage output, but a large disadvantage in movement and survivability.

Now add a midpoint, an smg. People will expect it to also have less penalties for using it like a pistol than what the rifles do, but still gain something from using it like a rifle. So we'll have a weapon with the advantages of both weapon classes and the drawbacks of niether. Alternately, we ignore that and give it the penalties. its still an smg, so its going to do less damage. so then there's no reason to use it over a full fledged rifle, especially if its a larger smg that would use the rifle animations (which will have less effective evasion once i get them done).

So I say dump them. Closest we should get is a burst fire pistol like a 93r.

Alternately, dump rifles and have SMGs take their place. but I think little light pistols vs huge powerful rifles is the way to go. With shotguns on the side, being usable in stunts but very slow.
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Re: SMGs and DA

Postby floater » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:59 pm

I somewhat agree since as for now, it seems that SMGs only make development of the core gameplay harder to focus on. IF they're going to be the midpoint like they were in TS that is. And it's hard to know what the midpoint is before there is a certain balance between the two opposites (as you suggest), rifles and pistols. Lack of which may eventually cause people to start using pistols/rifles only.

Unless, throwing some wild ideas out there, the different types of weapons could be made unique somehow else. For instance if the power ups could be tuned weapon class specific to make each type truly shine in their own right. This could create further variation in playstyles and perhaps also encourage combining different types of weapon in setups. Let me try to explain: I'll just call them weapon effects, as opposed to power ups such as slow mo to avoid confusion. Power ups require activation whereas the effects are passive while they last. So, what I'm suggesting would require three things:

1. filling up the power up bar would give the player a power up and a weapon effect and would also start a new bar
2. switching from a weapon type to another would cause the power up bar to drop
3. the weapon effect gained should depend on the type of weapon you used the moment you filled the bar up

Now, this wouldn't mean that you can only use slow motion after killing people with a pistol. Instead, filling up the bar not only allows you to use a power up, but also gives one of the weapon class specific effects for a short perioid of time or in some cases until you fill up the next bar. Or the effects could be so slight that they would stack until the player dies, making staying alive worth it.

These effects could be something like a stronger power up (smg), headshot damage multiplier (pistols), increased movement speed (shotguns), health drain (smg, knives), faster reload (rifles), balls to wall knockback (shotguns), highly damaging player stunt collisions (knives), exploding players lolol (grenade), extra mags of ammo for all the guns (pistols), increased accuracy when shot from hip (rifles), slow on hit (shotgun)... Notice that the suggested weapon type is the one required to activate the said effect, not the only weapon class that it affects unless stated differently. Basically, this means you could start using a pistol to slow people down after gaining the bonus by using a shotgun.

In general, SMG effects would be tactical, pistols would modify damage and ammunition, shotguns would affect movement, rifles would boost recovery times and accuracy and the rest of the items would have weapon related effects. Also notice that this would reduce the amount of different types of power ups needed. Perhaps slow motion and HP could work for starters.

The highest tier weapon effects could also belong in a different category altogether, such as unlocking some ridiculous firemode or spawning a secret weapon but that's just food for thought and probably plain stupid.

This would also increase feeling that there indeed are pistolars and roflmen out there without having to divide them. Let players choose if they want to be both. Also, as the effects would be passive they shouldn't complicate the gameplay a whole lot.

Any thoughts?
Last edited by floater on Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:33 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: SMGs and DA

Postby Dan » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:54 am

Smgs are definitely difficult to balance just as they were in TS because almost all fighting in game is at close range and optimal SMG range. If you model them realistically, they have really high dps. If you try to balance them with recoil, it's dumb. If you try to balance them with low damage, it's dumb. If you try to balance them with accuracy decay, it's dumb. Look at how problematic the MAC-10 was in TS to the point where it got cut completely.

My best guess at how to tackle SMGs in DAB is to give them a lower ammo pool.
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Re: SMGs and DA

Postby ThinRedPaste » Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:05 am

well, im not even talking about balancing a weapon against the other weapons, because we're doing something kind of different in terms of balance. We're balancing rifles against pistols by having the rifles be way better at everything if you move slowly and aim in, but useless if you're trying to stunt with them, while the pistols are most effective when you're being crazy hkbo man. At least that's what I thought we were doing (which is why I like the name double action - alludes to the two distinct gameplay styles). SMGs would demand a middle ground in that scheme, which I don't think can work with the rest of the concept. So I say remove the problem entirely.
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Re: SMGs and DA

Postby misanq » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:34 am

I'd say that cutting anything from the game at this point is probably a bad idea, since the projected amount of content for the starting releases is already extremely scant, to say the least. Furthermore, I (still) strongly question the idea that the game should be about fast stunting vs. slow non-stunting; since this has already brought up many times so I'll keep it short:

- Moseying around with a high powered weapon can be done in any of the innumerable Milsims, so making it half the game probably wouldn't be a great idea.
- People who stick with the game will do it for the stunting, not the milsim ironsights stuff; just as tribes veterans predominately like that game for the skiing not the fatman flag camping.
- As Dan hinted at, the idea that stunting was actually good against automatic weapons in TS was an illusion created by the fact that A) stunting was rewarded with significantly more points for most of the game's life and B) Skilled players typically gravitated (loudly) to the pistol section.
- The concept fundamentally provokes bigotry and resentment against the rofl playstyle (a.k.a. no-skill fags) in a game that's ostensibly about freedom of playstyle. More so, it encourages players to perceive being killed by a heavy player as being cheated by someone who isn't playing on the same terms as they. Neither of which is desirable if you want to foster a community for the game or have people actually use the content that you've created.

So I would say (again) that rofflemen need to be able to stunt, since stunting is the game's primary selling point. Rather than approach the game from the perspective that roflmen need disadvantages for having awesome shooties (didn't work for TS, etc.), I think you'd be better off trying to contrive ways for pistols to be good enough as weapons, so that any (hopefully small) additional advantages in speed and survivability end up as nice bonuses rather than the rusty, worn linchpin that inevitably balances the whole game (or more to the point, doesn't).

Dan wrote:If you try to balance them with low damage, it's dumb.

Plenty of milsims do this (Cod for instance), so I don't see how it could be that bad, unless you went totally overboard with it. The problem with TS was that (for some reason) it was decided that, unlike every game ever, damage would not be separately balanced against each weapon's overall strengths, but instead be based on what caliber the weapon used. So, of course 1000rpm smgs that did exactly the same amount of damage as the golden colts were wayyy better than anything in the pistol section and likewise the g18 ended up being as bad, if not worse, because it's damage was balanced off 9mm regardless of it's ROF. If we've learnt anything from TS, I would hope it would be that point-blank DPS is much more important than accuracy, recoil or mag size.
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Re: SMGs and DA

Postby Vino » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:15 am

I feel all of the arguments so far in this thread. Or at least most of them. I don't want an SMG section that is the same as rifles.

My original goal for balancing the game was to make each weapon class "orthogonal" to the other classes. Orthogonal meaning that it works differently and has a different purpose in the game, it there is as little duplication in gameplay as possible. A rifle should play fundamentally different from an smg which should play fundamentally different from a shotgun or pistol.

So what are the features that make each weapon different? Well if you look in the features thread then you'll see:

Pistols:
Semi auto
High DPS
Low ROF
No aim in

SMG:
Fully auto
Low DPS
High ROF
No aim in

Rifles:
Fully auto
High/medium DPS
Medium ROF
Aim in

Shotguns:
Semi auto
High DPS
Low ROF
Aim in

In this case, SMG's are like rifles but don't have aim in available, do less damage, and have higher rates of fire. They 're like pistols except they do less damage, have higher rates of fire and are fully automatic. Then, in each category, every time a new weapon is added, we ensure that it fills its own orthogonal niche inside that category. These rules may not be across the board, for example a higher damage lower ROF aim in "heavy" SMG may be added later. But they stand as general categories that should help us keep all weapons unique.

The last thing I want is an entire class of weapons to be redundant, but I think I have a strategy so they won't be so. The second to last thing I want is to remove a whole class of weapons.
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Re: SMGs and DA

Postby misanq » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:42 am

How about this:

SMGs fire 2-3 bullets at minimum per click, one bullet (primary) will land inside the cross hairs, the other(s) will land outside of the crosshairs in a random spread. This burst could fire each 'bullet' individually or as a shotgun-styled blast similar to that of the TF2's miniguns (probably preferable). The primary bullet of the blast does "full" damage, the secondary bullets an arbitrarily lower amount of damage. If fired full auto, weapon accuracy blows out slightly after the initial burst for both the primary and secondary zones. Primary rounds could have a headshot multiplier, secondary rounds might not.

Aesthetic Rationale:
Doing it this way means that you can have the classic film SMG that sprays a hail of bullets that are just as likely to blow chunks out of plaster and ricochet off of conveniently positioned guard rails as they are to actually hit their target without any of the pitfalls of having a weapon that's genuinely that inaccurate.

Gameplay rationale:
- Makes SMG shooting mechanics appear wholly different to rifles while still rewarding the same fundamental skills.
- If the primary round is reasonably accurate, players will be rewarded for accuracy at all ranges, while also being encouraged to close distance with their target for extra damage.
- Combining the click-burst mechanic with blow out would encourage aimed shooting at longer ranges, while still retaining the 'hail of bullets' aesthetic.
- Visible cross-hair blowout after the first burst would also excuse the inaccuracy of the secondary shots for players, preventing the gun from feeling random (or like an autoshotgun).
- Tagging someone will a secondary round while missing with the primary crosshair is worth much less than tagging someone with random spam from a mis-aimed traditional automatic.
- Making secondary bullets do less damage than the primary allows you to balance the DPS the gun does at point blank (i.e. every round is guaranteed to hit) separately from the DPS that you want the gun to do at 'normal' range (I.e. the range that you want most secondary shots to miss).
- If only one in 2-3 bullets consistently 'counts' in terms of accuracy and damage, then a real life ROF of 1000 could be subjectively much closer to 300-600 and a 30 round mag, closer to 10-15. In other words: pistol, shotgun and SMG attributes become more equitable behind the scenes, while still appearing very different from a player's perspective.



Take this as a rough example:

Mac10
Primary damage: 20%
Secondary damage: 5%
ROF: 1000rpm
Mag size: 30

At point blank: 4 bursts (12 rounds) to kill an enemy or ~1 second of shooting.
At a range that only the primary rounds will hit: 5 (15 rounds) bursts to kill an enemy or ~1 second of shooting.

(Alternatively, you could raise the secondary damage to half that of the primary if you wanted to reward players for getting close.)
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Re: SMGs and DA

Postby Wish » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:32 pm

It can't work, Vino. Situational weapons never do. One of them will emerge as a better (or less bad) general weapon, and that's what people will use. If you want to have a lot of categories, you actually have to go in the other direction to balance them - by making them all as good as possible in as many situations as possible. TS2.1; when everything's good, you can deal with the outlying weapons. TS3; when all the weapons suck, the outliers are the only ones you ever see.

This game is about style, but you're trying to make it about necessity. If these weapons are all so firmly in their niches, then the player's sense of individual style gets slapped in the face - because on this map it doesn't matter if I like pistols, I have to use a shotgun if I don't want to get bodied. Add your power up thing to these specialized weapons, and you're going to end up with a mess that'll make TS3 look good.

And be careful with how you deal with accuracy. There's nothing like clicking the mouse and seeing the bullet hit outside your crosshair. Accuracy decay is a bad joke. It does nothing but troll players. Use real, felt recoil if you want to make a weapon less precise. If the bullet can't even be bothered to go where I point it, I may as well go play CoD. I can jump around with pistols in there too, and they actually do damage and hit stuff.

With the wide weapon selection, the best balance is no balance. When everything is brokenly good, the whole arsenal gets seen, because you choose a gun because you like it, not because it's the only one you can get kills with. You'll always have outliers. TS2.1 came close to getting it right; the majority of the arsenal was viable in most situations, and that's what you have to go for. When a weapon is too good, you don't nerf it - you buff everything else. Or if not, you don't make it less accurate or less damaging, you increase its recoil or decrease its ammo pool, or find some other way to give it a drawback. Increase reload time. Just don't sissify it. Let's at least act like we learned something from TS3.
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Re: SMGs and DA

Postby Hadji|DP » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:25 am

I think we're forgetting the element of meter and special abilities. We can't really know how the guns work in relation to each other until we test the interactions between each gun group and each special ability. Right now we're only getting a feel for how the guns work, since we don't have all the options available for us at the moment.

If the time comes where we're constantly playing with all the tools that will be available to players and some options just simply aren't strong enough we should find a way to make those options much more viable, but not until we have sufficient enough data and analysis as to WHY those tools aren't strong enough. I agree that the philosophy to make everything "broken" will lead to greater variety, but in TS it still lead to a prevalence of guns being used. The purpose is not to make it so that way everyone uses every weapon equally, but to give everyone the tools to play with whatever loadout they want and to perform at the same level as someone else who chooses an extremely different but equally valid loadout.

We're simply just not at the stage to make these kinds of calls.
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Re: SMGs and DA

Postby Vino » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:13 pm

I am definitely in the "wait and see" camp. If TS could do it then DAB can. I'm not completely against removing smg's but I feel like I should give them a chance, and let the burden of proof be on those who want them removed.
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Re: SMGs and DA

Postby Antagonist » Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:19 pm

I agree dudes.

I think that without the aim-in, smgs should already have quite a disadvantage compared to rifles.

Of course I have never played with anyone other than Insane : (
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Re: SMGs and DA

Postby misanq » Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:46 pm

Wish wrote:TS2.1 came close to getting it right; the majority of the arsenal was viable in most situations, and that's what you have to go for. When a weapon is too good, you don't nerf it - you buff everything else. Or if not, you don't make it less accurate or less damaging, you increase its recoil or decrease its ammo pool, or find some other way to give it a drawback. Increase reload time. Just don't sissify it. Let's at least act like we learned something from TS3.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think you have a very bad case of rose tinted glasses. 2.1 was the version where they nerfed the absolute hell out of everything; the sd, tmp, g18, uzi, DE, m16 and AUG all got accuracy decay, the RB got a ROF cap, fu got side kicked through a wall, the g20 caught massive horizontal recoil... More so, 3.0's weapon badness was the product of a perfect storm created by the combination of of all the weapons being toned down at the last moment to make way for the contender and the addition of on-by-default body armour that turned the lower caliber weapons into popguns. 2.0 was the version where everything was broken and everyone hated it; but then again, a lot of people were adamant that 2.0 was the best version of TS ever when 2.1 was the new thing, so who knows?

Either way, I think the near ubiquitous prevalence of blowout for hip-firing in the big fps games these days, plus the undying popularity of CS:S should be proof enough that most players probably don't really see blowout in the same light that you do. Do we not all agree that view kick alone really didn't work with TS even when it was taken to ridiculous extremes with the AK? View kick works pretty well for things like semi-auto sniper rifles and in games where a subtle degree of kick will put you off your target because of the long ranges involved, but for arena games like TS and DAB where it's not unusual to be aiming at a target that fills up a third of your screen, even guns with ceiling-shooter recoil are pretty trivial to keep on target, once you've got the hand of it. And that's the other thing to consider, how would players who're used to playing COD going to feel about heavy view kick that doesn't reset after every shot?

Months ago, I think someone suggested automatics having both accuracy decay and (weak, I assume) view kick while in hipfire mode, so maybe that's worth considering? Perhaps only rifles could have the accuracy+view kick mechanic to differentiate them from SMGs?
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Re: SMGs and DA

Postby Wish » Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:06 am

In 2.0 and 2.1 the guns killed people fast(er); in 3.0 they didn't. (Part damage/accuracy/accuracy decay madness, part because everybody was slippy slidey boosting around faster, which made it a little harder to hit them. And body armor, and so on. I was there too.)

I'm saying this: I advocate accurate, damaging weapons. With this many categories it's going to be a clustercuss no matter what, which is fine; I'd just rather it be an effective clustercuss (pre-3.0) than a zippy, yet impotent clustercuss (outside of fu) like 3.0
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Re: SMGs and DA

Postby misanq » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:18 am

I probably should have also mentioned that 3.0 changed the random view kick of 2.0-2.1 back to 1.5 style (i.e. linear) so if you're under the impression that felt recoil has a real effect on player accuracy, then 3.0's weapons were technically much more accurate than 2.1's.
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Re: SMGs and DA

Postby Antagonist » Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:49 pm

Yeah. I don't really think the accuracy was the biggest problem with 3.0's weapons. I think that damages were. In a mod where you have to hit with 15 rounds from a sub machine gun, but can be brought down by only two lightning fast karate kicks -- you have to start re evaluating the whole concept of the mod. :P

At the same time, I think that accuracy decay is old news. What I think we need is some resetting recoil. We need some modified CS GO beta recoil up here.
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