SMGs and DA

No sólo tacos y guitarras.

Re: SMGs and DA

Postby Vino » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:54 pm

misanq wrote:
Vino wrote:and DPS (second) and DPS (shot) are basically the same thing anyways

Noooo, damage per second is a measure of damage output that you use to compare weapons with. If one weapon has higher Damage per second than another, then it is objectively better than the other unless the high DPS weapon is likely to miss at a rate that reduces it's actual damage output to a similar level of DPS as the other.


I disagree. Technically you're right but effectively the actual DPS output of a weapon depends on many factors including its accuracy, recoil, range (since different weapons have different damage falloffs) and the skill of the respective players holding each weapon, and probably other stuff. Measuring by DPS only is misleading and only gives you a partial picture, I don't think it's so objective.
[ Tw | Fb | G+ ]
User avatar
Vino
We'll see
 
Posts: 3976
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 7:25 pm
Location: Cary, NC

Re: SMGs and DA

Postby ThinRedPaste » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:25 am

New Data Straight from the Lab

RESEARCH RECORDING:


Item 1: Before any weapon balancing worth anything can be, needs placeholders for light pistols and both (both) kimbos. This is super urgent. We just can't stress how urgent this is. I'ma bust out player anims for it in the next day or two. at least the basic aiming ones, even if i don't get to dives.

Weapon Stuff:
1911 - Needs accuracy, rof, and damage buffs. Keep in mind it's the heavy pistol, but right now it's more like a light pistol with a tiny mag and high recoil. It takes more than half the mag to kill, and you're not even guaranteed to hit. The accuracy isn't egregiously bad, but it's more like what you'd want from a spammy gun, and the heavy pistol shouldn't have the characteristics of a spammy gun - even though you should have the option of spamming it at the cost of controllability. (Kimbos would have some different characteristics.)

1911 headshot should be an instant kill, or a 99 - and it should have no (no) damage falloff. 1911 is a 4 hit kill. Should be 3, max. At range it's 5 or 6 - that's why the damage falloff needs to go. 3 hits at any range, excluding head shots. Heavy.

LIGHT PISTOL - assuming 15 shots; should kill in 6 to the body. Light pistol headshots - double damage.

Disclaimer: the no smg/low mobility rifle shit is disregarded for these evaluations.
MP5K - pretty good all around. Accuracy is about where you want it to be, and so is damage. For the moment, you probably want to leave it alone, aside from adding a little bit of felt recoil.

FAL - the hipfire accuracy is okay as it is, but when aimed in it's not good enough to stand up to the MP5k. Start off by reducing the aim-in recoil. It *may* need a slight damage buff, but it definitely needs to have absolutely no damage falloff. It's a dang rifle; it's supposed to be good at range.

Shotgun - accuracy and behavior looks good. It's clearly the top tier weapon right now, and this isn't a knee-jerk thing, but maybe reduce it to 6 shots rather than eight.
Last edited by ThinRedPaste on Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fuck this shit, I'm going to bed.
User avatar
ThinRedPaste
 
Posts: 987
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:18 pm

Re: SMGs and DA

Postby misanq » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:06 am

Well that puts the complaints about weak weapons in a different light.
User avatar
misanq
 
Posts: 1007
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:45 am

Re: SMGs and DA

Postby Vino » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:01 am

Great analysis. That song was hot. I'll respond when I don't have shit to do all day. Maybe at lunchtime. Sorry, Tuesdays are busy for me.
[ Tw | Fb | G+ ]
User avatar
Vino
We'll see
 
Posts: 3976
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 7:25 pm
Location: Cary, NC

Re: SMGs and DA

Postby Vino » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:52 am

Okay. Response post in two parts:

1) The conversation is about whether the SMG is redundant, and the intention of my post was to ask you whether you thought the current implementation of the MP5K and FAL were too similar in their mechanics and handling. You didn't address that in your post at all. You just gave me balance feedback, which is great but beside the point.

Please go back and retest and tell me whether you think the SMG and rifle as currently designed are too similar or feel qualitatively different.

2) Your balance feedback is noted. A lot of your points have merit, like the falloff rates and aim in accuracy, I'll take a look at those. But as for the rest, for now I will not act on it. Not to say that I'll ignore it, but I will take it as another series of data points to evaluate during the next testing. The reason is that kneejerk reactions were one of the largest problem in 2.1 and 3.0 testing that caused balance issues. I remember this specifically, at one point I decided not to change any values unless it was the result of a positive identification of an issue, immediately after a test. After that the balancing started to get much better.

And anyway, I disagree that a 4 shot heavy pistol is bad. I was aware that it's at four shots, that's where I put it because that's where I think it needs to be. There's a few reasons:

a) 4 isn't really that much. You can unload four shots in less than a second. Skilled players have no problem landing all of those shots on target.
b) Most of the time players don't run around with full health. Effectively the hits to kill is a bit lower than advertised.
c) When you mix in damage modifiers from the style meter, weapons start getting really really powerful.

Nobody's complained about the pistol being too weak after a playtest because I think the number is roughly where it needs to be, and the numbers lie.
[ Tw | Fb | G+ ]
User avatar
Vino
We'll see
 
Posts: 3976
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 7:25 pm
Location: Cary, NC

Re: SMGs and DA

Postby ThinRedPaste » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:15 pm

nobody complained about the pistol because nobody used it. Everybody was using the shotgun. Over half a mag is way too much. if your opponents just stand still, you should be able to get 2 or 3 kills with any gun without reloading. Throw in all the missing people will do, you're looking at 7 shots, reload, several more shots. Only the best maintain accuracy above 50 or 60% in a game with this much movement and evasion. When we did pistol vs pistol, it wasn't uncommon for us to have to reload twice or even 3 times before someone died. (My aim is shit, but wish's isn't and that was the case for both of us.) all the stunting in the world isn't going to keep you alive for that long in the face of the smg or shotgun. besides, its a .45. .45 ACP's main selling point is that its generally a one shot stopper, and we're asking for 3. and no, you cannot get 4 shots out in under a second with the gun the way it is. that is patently untrue. Even if you could, you wouldn't hit anything. the gun is objectively useless.

Also, what we said about the fal was intended as suggestions on how to differentiate it from the smg. the smg does well as a close range, hold the trigger, do some stunts, get some kills gun. the fal isn't as good up close due to its lower rof, but the problem is that it isnt any better far away either, due to aim in recoil. We played a number of matches before doing any recording, to see how x gun fared against y gun in z map/situation. what we found is that the pistol is far and away the worst gun in the game in all situations (too weak and inaccurate for long range, too weak and slow for short range - every other gun can get the kill before the 1911 can.), and that the fal needs the changes we mentioned to keep it from just being a less effective smg, which is what it is now.
Fuck this shit, I'm going to bed.
User avatar
ThinRedPaste
 
Posts: 987
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:18 pm

Re: SMGs and DA

Postby Vino » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:00 pm

Alright then. I'll keep a closer eye on it next playtest.
[ Tw | Fb | G+ ]
User avatar
Vino
We'll see
 
Posts: 3976
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 7:25 pm
Location: Cary, NC

Re: SMGs and DA

Postby misanq » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:21 am

Messing around with the new version, I noticed that aimed-in single shots from the FAL have very low base accuracy compared to how I pictured an assault rifle. Also, the accuracy seems pretty random, sometimes you can go six or seven shots before getting one that hits the center of the crosshair and sometimes it's closer to two or three either way. Either way, if you use single aimed shots, the first, second and third shots are almost guaranteed to miss center, whereas going full auto will often ironically result in a much more accurate spread in the same time frame. I don't know whether you deliberately designed it that way or it's just some freak outcome, but the end result feels counter-intuitive to how I, and I'm guessing most players, would expect an assault rifle to work in a game.

Also, the letter box effect is pretty nice looking.
User avatar
misanq
 
Posts: 1007
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:45 am

Re: SMGs and DA

Postby Vino » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:33 am

If you think of accuracy as the distance that a shot deviates from the center, (so, smaller is better,) then the accuracy drops by 50% when you go into aim in. I didn't want to drop it to zero, thus making the aim in 100% accurate, since that's pinpoint shots and those can actually be harder to use when a weapon is at full auto. But when the weapon is used as a semi auto, taking potshots one at a time, it should be incredibly accurate while aiming in. It should drop down to something like 20%, ie 1/5 the distance. So perhaps I need to do one of those things where the longer you hold it down the more inaccurate it becomes. I haven't done that yet because it's very Counter-Strikey and I didn't want to use it to balance weapons, but I suppose it can be used to make potshots more accurate. Either way I think it's a bad idea to drop it down to 0% pinpoint accuracy. It makes weapons harder to use, easier to exploit, makes them lose their charm and believability when they can hit two pixels a mile away.
[ Tw | Fb | G+ ]
User avatar
Vino
We'll see
 
Posts: 3976
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 7:25 pm
Location: Cary, NC

Re: SMGs and DA

Postby misanq » Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:44 am

I went and dodgied up a firing range demonstrate the accuracy of weapons at this iteration of the game. The first set of targets are 40 feet away, the second set are at 100 feet.

ProTip: show
What the range looks like, my screen res is 1680x1050, so the targets are a lot bigger than they look in the picture.
NSFW: show
Image


At 40 feet

Aimed in potshots from the fal.
NSFW: show
Image



Aimed in full auto from the fal (Note that I couldn't actually see the target due to unwisely making them from materials that spray huge particle effects everywhere).
NSFW: show
Image


Hipfire full auto from the fal.
NSFW: show
Image


Aimed in potshots from the 1911.
NSFW: show
Image


Aimed in full auto from the mp5.
NSFW: show
Image


At 100 feet (aiming for the torso)

Fal potshots.
NSFW: show
Image


Fal auto.
NSFW: show
Image


Mp5 full auto.
NSFW: show
Image


1911 potshots.
NSFW: show
Image


Obviously, that isn't the most robust test, but hopefully it kind of shows how random the fal's aimed in accuracy is at the moment. Looking at the first picture, even if you do dial the accuracy down to 20% for the first shot, it might not guarantee that you'll hit a stationary person's head from across a decent sized room with the first shot (or hit them at all). And even if it did, going full auto on an obscured target with the current accuracy can land almost as many hits in a second or so just through luck. Then if you compare the 100ft ones, spamming with the mp5 is about as likely to hit the target as carefully aimed shots from the Fal and if you consider that you could probably fire all your mp5 ammo in the time it takes to take 20 shots with the Fal, well...
Also, is the 1911 intended to be more accurate than the FAL for sniping or is that just a quirk?

Bonus round: Some montages of aimed-in single shots and bursts from the fal at 40 feet.

NSFW: show
Image
Image
Image

Three shot bursts seem particularly bad compared to what you can do with full auto. Probably because you can't really counter-act the recoil the way you can with longer bursts.

Edit: Here's a fixed version of that shooting range map with two more targets at 10 and 20 feet, if anyone wants to mess round with it.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/65221000/shooting_range.bsp
User avatar
misanq
 
Posts: 1007
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:45 am

Re: SMGs and DA

Postby Antagonist » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:26 pm

So yeah... how is this going?
Image
[Stink.inc | Antagonist]
User avatar
Antagonist
 
Posts: 2247
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: in yo stupid face

Re: SMGs and DA

Postby Vino » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:11 pm

I'm so busy this month that I'm skipping the DAB release but I'll get to all this stuff when I make the twice-as-big release next month. I wrote down a lot of the stuff brought up here in my to do notes so we'll talk about it again once we've had a chance to play the changes.
[ Tw | Fb | G+ ]
User avatar
Vino
We'll see
 
Posts: 3976
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 7:25 pm
Location: Cary, NC

Re: SMGs and DA

Postby shmopaloppa » Thu May 31, 2012 7:46 pm

Imo the smg should stay and you should balance it by making it objectively bad. They're always fun to use and they're easy to use for new/casual players. I would think they would be differentiated by having the highest ROF in the game, but basically have a steep accuracy penalty after the first few shots and do the lowest damage. They'll be very usable, spammy, and will always lose to someone with a rifle or pistol who can aim. Plus you just can't really have an action mod without smg(s).

Edit: When I say objectively bad, I basically mean low skill cap. Easy introductory gun, but because ROF is the main differentiating factor you can't really give it significant damage, so it won't hold up as well against other full HP opponents with higher damage weapons that they can use well.
User avatar
shmopaloppa
T-rex > : (
 
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:50 pm

Previous

Return to Double Action Development

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron