Weapon Balancing and You!

No sólo tacos y guitarras.

Re: Weapon Balancing and You!

Postby ThinRedPaste » Wed May 09, 2012 9:17 pm

yeah, rof cap is the only way I can see to fix that problem, except for weapons that we want to specifically be "long range" in which case we can do an inverse damage falloff so they're just straight weaker up close.

and if the 1911 has the stats you estimated, then I'd be suggesting something more like .4 speed .6 accuracy 1.0 damage. Yeah, that goes against that accuracy stuff i was saying, but that's more general. the 1911 isnt a magnum. if we had like a .44 or something i'd be demanding it be a very slow (like .2), very very accurate 2 hit kill. for the 1911, 3 hits is reasonable (and by 3 I mean 2 and a half/three quarters, so on an injured player it'll presumably take 2), and .4 speed isn't that much faster than .3, so I think it'll still be slow enough to stop the point blank gonuts from being the optimal strategy.

However I think you're overweighting damage.

btw you weren't the one that convinced me my other stuff was bad.

something else to consider: modifiers to damage taken when stunting? iirc TS had you take a little less damage when stunting. is that something we want? I vote yea on that one. Personally, I'd like to see stunting also be the equivalent to aiming in for pistols - give them something of an accuracy bonus while stunting, that no other weapon class gets.
Last edited by ThinRedPaste on Wed May 09, 2012 9:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Fuck this shit, I'm going to bed.
User avatar
ThinRedPaste
 
Posts: 987
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:18 pm

Re: Weapon Balancing and You!

Postby Vino » Wed May 09, 2012 9:25 pm

Okay, then the order of the day is a slight ROF and Accuracy boost and a decent damage boost, in addition to the recoil reduction. We'll try that out for next test.

Antag, I would say that the python in works because because of that super exaggerated animation. It makes it much more obvious that you can't fire again until it's closer to center. If we wanted to do that with the 1911 or whatever then it may work. But I don't think we want to do that in an action game. Part of what would make it not work in DAB is how much more fast paced DAB is.
[ Tw | Fb | G+ ]
User avatar
Vino
We'll see
 
Posts: 3976
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 7:25 pm
Location: Cary, NC

Re: Weapon Balancing and You!

Postby ThinRedPaste » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:01 pm

Ok, how does everyone feel about the weapon balance as it stands now? I've heard some argument about which pistol is better, which I take as a good sign - if we can't decide which one is better then they must be pretty decently balanced, at least against each other. I haven't heard much about any of the other weapons though.
Fuck this shit, I'm going to bed.
User avatar
ThinRedPaste
 
Posts: 987
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:18 pm

Re: Weapon Balancing and You!

Postby Takub » Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:34 pm

It'd be easier to say if I could play with you guys more often but nevertheless here's my $ 0.02

It feels like the Vector / Mac never hits where I'm aiming. Of course it might be a "problem" with the crosshairs too, but maybe it could be slightly more accurate.
I think the MP5k could do with a slight damage boost, otherwise I think it's fine. I can hit shit with it and even get some kills.

I think the shotgun is pretty good, and it's not a total rape machine even up close if your opponent has any sort of brain activity.

The FAL feels real easy to use with the aim-in, but it can get hard to control pretty fast.



Now Vino I like your 2 points thing with the fancy decimals and stuff, but what are the stats on the different guns right now ?
Image
Hey guys, feeling Asian?
Not to worry!
If
you listen to these tunes, you can look like a caucasian male too!
User avatar
Takub
 
Posts: 882
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:16 pm

Re: Weapon Balancing and You!

Postby Vino » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:46 pm

It's pretty good right now I think. We're at the point where the guns are all balanced well enough that it's tough to tell if any pull ahead more or less than the others. Sometimes a gun is too strong but it's only discovered two months later when it starts catching on. The process from here on out is observing and slowly tweaking things and being okay with moderate imbalances. I don't expect to balance the game 100%, it's just not possible, and being slightly unbalanced is actually more fun than being completely balanced. I'm happy to just get rid of any obvious outliers.
[ Tw | Fb | G+ ]
User avatar
Vino
We'll see
 
Posts: 3976
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 7:25 pm
Location: Cary, NC

Re: Weapon Balancing and You!

Postby misanq » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:25 am

At the moment I think the weapons go something like this:

Tier 1:
1911
p99
FAL - Easily the best weapon for large maps.

Tier 2:
Mp5k - Pretty decent at close and middle range, but drops off the face of the earth at longer ranges.

Tier 3:
Mac10 - This probably needs the aim in back at minimum. The heavy recoil combined with the innaccuracy make it medicore at close range, but subpar beyond that, from my experience. Also, the fal feels about as effective at close range, despite having more recoil.
Shotgun - Aim in seems pretty pointless at the moment. Even on the smallest maps standing still is pretty much the opposite of what you want to be doing with the shotgun and the fire rate increase is barely noticeable anyway.

On the smaller maps the weapons are all pretty decently balanced, but on more open maps like autumn and rooftops it's apparent that the pistols and fal are all-stars and the smgs are just wasting ammo beyond a certain range. While there's nothing necessarily wrong if the smgs and shotgun can't hit anything at long range, and arguably that is how it should be, but as BaronfelX said during the test, why would you not choose the fal on autumn?
I don't know whether it's necessarily a balance problem or a mapping one, but I would predict that in the wild certain maps will be solidly pistol/fal only for the majority of players and the other half of the weapons will be marginalized.
User avatar
misanq
 
Posts: 1007
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:45 am

Re: Weapon Balancing and You!

Postby Antagonist » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:11 am

Noticing that it feels shitty as fuck to be tactical with the shotguns in this version. Very different from last version where aim-in shotgun ripped ass. Maybe it would be more fun to give shotties a different function all-together. Something like combat-loading a slug when you aim-in...



So that every time you aim-in, you have pinpoint accuracy one-shot capability for one round.
Image
[Stink.inc | Antagonist]
User avatar
Antagonist
 
Posts: 2247
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: in yo stupid face

Re: Weapon Balancing and You!

Postby BullHorn » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:40 am

That's cool :D
[Stink.Inc | BullHorn]
User avatar
BullHorn
 
Posts: 1381
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:22 am
Location: The Middle East

Re: Weapon Balancing and You!

Postby ThinRedPaste » Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:08 pm

I'm down with that. Animation shouldnt be hard.
Fuck this shit, I'm going to bed.
User avatar
ThinRedPaste
 
Posts: 987
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:18 pm

Re: Weapon Balancing and You!

Postby misanq » Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:18 pm

That's a really good idea.
User avatar
misanq
 
Posts: 1007
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:45 am

Re: Weapon Balancing and You!

Postby Vino » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:18 pm

Really I should just take Autumn out of the map cycle. It's not representative of the other maps and it skews the play style so strongly. With long range distances like that of course you're going to get long range weapons winning out. We need to test in maps where there are alternating long and short range so that those rifles don't take first prize all the time.

Instead of giving MAC 10 aim-in I think I'd rather bump the damage a little bit to compensate for the recoil. I mean come on, aiming in a MAC 10, that sounds ridiculous. Even aiming in a Vector.

TRP suggested and I agree that I do something about the damage dropoff at range of the SMG's and I think the best course of action here is to cap the dropoff so that after a while it falls to a minimum value and stays there. Right now it just keeps falling off to zero.
[ Tw | Fb | G+ ]
User avatar
Vino
We'll see
 
Posts: 3976
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 7:25 pm
Location: Cary, NC

Re: Weapon Balancing and You!

Postby misanq » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:53 pm

Well, yanno there's aiming-in for tacticool accuracy and then there's aiming-in to control ridiculous recoil and spread.

ProTip: show
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image


It totally makes sense from a thematic stand point if you think if it not as aiming so much as bracing for impact, particularly if there's no zoom and the hip-fire stance for the mac10 used the pistol's one handed animation. The aim in wouldn't need to be as good as the FAL's, just enough to keep the spread somewhere near the edges of the crosshair at medium range.
User avatar
misanq
 
Posts: 1007
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:45 am

Re: Weapon Balancing and You!

Postby Vino » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:27 am

The reason I took the small aim-in that was there out is because when people saw the FOV tighten they assumed they would get the same advantages as the FAL gets. So, it's a bit of a usability problem. Either it's there and people assume it's better than it is or it's not. As it is, there's a slight accuracy/recoil advantage when shift is down even for the non-FAL weapons, (call it a bracing buff if you want,) it's like 20% to the FAL's 60%. I just don't tell the player about it because in the end I don't think we want people standing around shooting each other, we want them diving shooting each other. I don't think any amount of accuracy/recoil reduction is going to make the MP5/MAC10 usable at the kinds of ranges the FAL is good at without making it too strong at that range - after all our design is to make the MP5/MAC10 weak at long ranges. And at short range, why would you want to stand still?
[ Tw | Fb | G+ ]
User avatar
Vino
We'll see
 
Posts: 3976
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 7:25 pm
Location: Cary, NC

Previous

Return to Double Action Development

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron