PTSD

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Re: PTSD

Postby misanq » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:45 am

Oh hi.

I think powerups were appropriate for the era when TS was around, but these days they seem to me like something that only casual minigames do. But, I feel that they're inherently a bad idea anyway, since they encourage(d) camping the (good) powerup spawn areas.
As far as the style meter goes, as it stands the new passive mechanic is very similar to what TS did, except that in TS it worked off kills and rewarded you with health and permanent fu, rather than giving you a choice of rewards. So I think that if you stop and look at it a bit harder, the style meter hasn't replaced the powerup system, it's just slightly modifying something that was always in TS and the powerups are just gone.
Personally, I think the new passive style meter system can work as well as it did in TS, if not better, it just needs refinement. If you want to get back into TS territory, perhaps it'd be worth backing off the idea of the style meter as being quad-damage mode or nothing and make the bonuses incremental, the way TS did.
Say, three kills (or whatever arbitary number of style points works) fills the bar and the player receives one or two blocks of health recovery (a la TS), plus a small permanent passive bonus to whatever trait the player chose, similar to the way TS awarded the fu powerup for X amount of kills. If you want to go with the current set of style traits, you could do something like this:

Marksman - Faster reloads
Adrenaline - Extra speed
Slomo - Double slomo points per kill
Hard to kill - % damage reduction.

That's an example, but are plenty of others you could mix and match with, like fu damage, speed during slomo, air time, weapon switch speed, silent footsteps. They don't really need to be especially powerful or useful all the time since they're permanent, just novel little bonuses that spice up the core gameplay.
Also, if you like the quad-damage mode thing and want to keep it, perhaps consider a system where filling the bar three times (TS was 10 kills for the max bonus, right?) gives you 10 seconds of the rampage mode, after which the whole thing resets or turns off, depending on how forgiving you want to be to the people getting killed.


Whatever you do, I really think that the style bar needs to be made to work, since it adds depth and customization to the game, which is something that people more or less expect out of a deathmatch game these days. Also, I think that it could actually be good and fun if the wrinkles are ironed out.
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Re: PTSD

Postby Dementei » Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:07 am

I like these ideas as well.

And I will be running the latest version of dat dab goodness brutha.
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Re: PTSD

Postby Vino » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:50 am

misan, you have some good ideas. When terp suggested bringing back powerups my first thought was "there's no reason we can't have both..." But if you play the most recent version you'll find that I changed the style meter system and it now works a lot like you say. After one or two kills' worth of being stylish you're automatically granted the skill (no button press required) and it wears off after so much usage of the skill. Right now you can't earn more style while your style skill is active, but we could change that pretty easy. I'm reticent to go with permanent bonuses because that would trend the one or two best players to become massively OP killing gods after a while, but then again maybe not so we can try that too.
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Re: PTSD

Postby Weedwacker » Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:55 pm

Vino wrote:I'm reticent to go with permanent bonuses because that would trend the one or two best players to become massively OP killing gods after a while, but then again maybe not so we can try that too.

Oooh, i'd like to test out being a god next time
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Re: PTSD

Postby misanq » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:42 pm

Vino wrote:But if you play the most recent version you'll find that I changed the style meter system and it now works a lot like you say.

Yeah, that's why I was comparing the two really, since they're quite similar now apart from the type of bonuses they give.

Vino wrote:I'm reticent to go with permanent bonuses because that would trend the one or two best players to become massively OP killing gods after a while, but then again maybe not so we can try that too.

If that's a problem, the bonuses can arguably be toeing the placebo line in terms of power, so long as they're there. The idea isn't for the them to be awesome, so much as to be tangible rewards for style kills that any player can get. If anything, you wouldn't want the permanent bonuses to really affect gameplay much, because you want a good fraction of players to have them at any one time.
The way it is with ~two stunt kills being able to trip the meter, anyone who knows how to play the game will be able to have the OP mode more than not, which devalues the big flashy fanfare you get and seems sort of off message in relation to the gameplay premise. The timed massively OP killing god rewards should really be quite rare, ~10 kill streak rare, I think.

Alternatively we could try to see if we can get rights for this to use as the title music.

NSFW: show
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Re: PTSD

Postby ThinRedPaste » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:10 am

Dementei wrote:I like these ideas as well.

And I will be running the latest version of dat dab goodness brutha.


err, we were talking about hosting for a TS session. Seems like 2.1 is the most widely preferred version, but its host's choice.

Also, misan's suggestion is pretty similar to something I had suggested a while back about a passive style system. specifically, the bit where racking up style incrementally increases your bonuses, which are always on. I also like the idea of bringing back the healing for every x kills regardless of style. Its like a cod killstreak system, but without the garbage that just kills people for you. Also, with a system like this, the style meter penalties for death should be fucking HARSH. like, complete empty of the meter harsh. The meter doesn't need to take up nearly so much screen space with this model, either.

or, we could go a slightly different way, though i'm not sure how well this would work: intentional power creep. power gain is relatively quick and deaths reset your powers to minimum, but as the game progresses, that minimum slowly creeps up. By the end EVERYONE is full powered or near it.

This idea comes from something I noticed playing TS. a sort of power creep happened there, over the course of several games. at the start, it was pretty much all pistols all the time. then a few shotguns popped up. then some rifles and smgs, then more rifles and smgs. the longer we played, the more people brought out the bigger guns, and the higher the scores got. It was kind of cool to see it escalating like that, and that might be something worth having happen on purpose, but with powers rather than weapons.
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Re: PTSD

Postby Weedwacker » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:56 am

I was just bringing out the gay weapons to be annoying cause mangaas was doing it and TOG kept barret whoring
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Re: PTSD

Postby ThinRedPaste » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:45 am

not sure you can call what tog was doing with the barrett "whoring." I was in a skype call with him at the time and he was like "HOW DO YOU WORK THIS FUCKING THING?"
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Re: PTSD

Postby Dementei » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:54 am

I was confused if it was from dab or for ts but okay, my ts 3.0 server is already setup I just ran it recently almost full server too (15 nubs)
If needed I will install 2.1 as well, but the only people who would be playing is us, people too lazy to install it probably (and already used to the mechanics of 3.0)

Also I will be whorin dat barrett as well.
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Re: PTSD

Postby Vino » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:16 pm

misanq wrote:If that's a problem, the bonuses can arguably be toeing the placebo line in terms of power, so long as they're there. The idea isn't for the them to be awesome, so much as to be tangible rewards for style kills that any player can get. If anything, you wouldn't want the permanent bonuses to really affect gameplay much, because you want a good fraction of players to have them at any one time.
The way it is with ~two stunt kills being able to trip the meter, anyone who knows how to play the game will be able to have the OP mode more than not, which devalues the big flashy fanfare you get and seems sort of off message in relation to the gameplay premise. The timed massively OP killing god rewards should really be quite rare, ~10 kill streak rare, I think.


So you're saying, two stunt kills gets you a flashy but mostly harmless and permanent-until-death skill, but more gets you a more substantial skill?
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Re: PTSD

Postby ThinRedPaste » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:33 pm

Dementei wrote:I was confused if it was from dab or for ts but okay, my ts 3.0 server is already setup I just ran it recently almost full server too (15 nubs)
If needed I will install 2.1 as well, but the only people who would be playing is us, people too lazy to install it probably (and already used to the mechanics of 3.0)

Also I will be whorin dat barrett as well.


The idea is to look back at TS and find what strengths it has that DA lacks, to give ourselves a better idea of how to move forward. Most people on the forum seem to think 2.1 was the strongest version of TS, but there's some disagreement there as well. There's a thread in the ts refugees camp about it, check it out.
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Re: PTSD

Postby misanq » Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:56 am

Vino wrote:So you're saying, two stunt kills gets you a flashy but mostly harmless and permanent-until-death skill, but more gets you a more substantial skill?

By flashy I mean, something like when you fill up your style meter you get a sound notification (cha-ching?) and a symbol showing the type of skill would pop up under your style bar and the meter itself could probably also flash for a little bit or something like that. After the second time you filled your bar you could do what trp is saying, and increase the skill's power to something more substantial or award second mostly harmless skill. Then, of course, the third or forth time you fill the bar you get the flashy golden boy mode for a set period (time, bullets etc.). The idea is to make the golden boy stuff rare enough that simply seeing the visual effect is unusual and rewarding, otherwise you risk altering the overall aesthetics and core gameplay. Also, taking a longer view, each trait could eventually have it's own special golden boy effect e.g. a motion blur tail for adrenaline rush and flaming fists for a hypothetical kungfu trait.

That said, there are a couple of problems with both systems. TRP's method could make certain skills much more powerful than others at the high end of the scale, potentially limiting the types of skill that you'd be able to work with, e.g. damage reduction or extra slow mo vs reload speed. The second way has the problem of not really being able to go beyond two or three rewards before the HUD starts getting junked up with symbols and gives people information overload.
Here's a prototype for the second idea:

Marksman:
Reload speed
(Slight) Recoil reduction
10 seconds of unlimited ammo, recoil reduction etc. (???)

Adrenaline rush
Speed increase
Air time increase
10 seconds of super speed (TF2 scoot blur effect)

Slo mo
+1 slomo per kill
Improved slomo
10 seconds of activated super slowmo. (White dove particle effects fly out of player's arse.)

Hard to kill
Extra block of health
~20% damage reduction
10 seconds of ~70% damage reduction. (T1000 texture? Sparks instead of blood? Too whimsical?)

10 seconds is probably way too long, but you get the idea. Also you could probably consider giving each trait a starting ability like extra ammo or possibly shunt some of the ones like speed and an extra block of health down to starting abilities.
Which ever way it goes, I definitely agree with TRP that the health regen rewards from TS should come back.
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Re: PTSD

Postby Dementei » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:57 am

ThinRedPaste wrote:
Dementei wrote:I was confused if it was from dab or for ts but okay, my ts 3.0 server is already setup I just ran it recently almost full server too (15 nubs)
If needed I will install 2.1 as well, but the only people who would be playing is us, people too lazy to install it probably (and already used to the mechanics of 3.0)

Also I will be whorin dat barrett as well.


The idea is to look back at TS and find what strengths it has that DA lacks, to give ourselves a better idea of how to move forward. Most people on the forum seem to think 2.1 was the strongest version of TS, but there's some disagreement there as well. There's a thread in the ts refugees camp about it, check it out.


Sorry misan for kinda interrupting but yea I'll be hosting 3.0 all day Sunday I'll' be playing after 7pm EST.
Hostname will be something like Double Action: Boogaloo - Revisiting TS *http://doubleactiongame.com/*
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Re: PTSD

Postby Vino » Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:59 pm

Alright let's see what we've got...

misanq wrote:a symbol showing the type of skill would pop up under your style bar and the meter itself could probably also flash for a little bit or something like that.


This sounds great, can you make four symbols like this? It would help a lot. Maybe two versions, one desaturated dim that's always there to remind the player of what skill they have, and one bright colorful glowy one to show that it's currently active.

Whenever I'm debating things like this in my head I always go back to my goals. What are my goals? For the skills system, I want to reward the player for stylish gameplay and give her a feeling of coolness or power or badassness. I also want it to be something accessible even if you're relatively new - ie something that happens to newbies sometimes and pros more often. How do you think these assorted systems fit the goals? Or do you think there are some goals I'm missing?

One thing I feel like I'm not delivering on is the "coolness" mode. In fact sometimes you don't even see when it activates. This next version I'm going to be adding an onscreen text (similar to the "Vino is The Specialist!" message from TS but I have a different design in mind) when the style skill triggers to help with that. But it'll have to be more than that, of course. There has to be a tactile change of some kind, only part of which is visual, when your style skill is activated that signals "I have a new power." These are the kinds of things I'll be working on for the next version now that all of the features are out.

misanq wrote:10 seconds of unlimited ammo, recoil reduction etc. (???)


I'm not a fan of "10 seconds". I remember this as a fault of TS. Your skill is activated and you run around for those 10 seconds like a chicken with its head cut off trying to find someone to shoot at. Even if you did find someone sometimes your brashness would give them a clear shot on you and then your powerup was wasted. Or sometimes you just didn't find anybody, or never had a chance to activate it. So instead I made it so it activates automatically, and there's a bar of "style juice" that gets slowly emptied as you do style-skill-related activites.

So for example, for unlimited ammo it's not really unlimited ammo, it's really just 100 or so free bullets. Each bullet you fire doesn't deplete your mag but it does deplete your style juice instead. I mean, "unlimited ammo" isn't really unlimited if it's only for a few seconds is it? The end effect is the same, except there's no rush to use the skill. For Adrenaline Rush you use up your style juice when you punch or kick someone or do one of the superdives you get when you have Adrenaline Rush. And so on.

misanq wrote:(T1000 texture? Sparks instead of blood? Too whimsical?)


No sounds awesome I am down want more stuff like this who will make it?

TRP put my brain down the path of pickups that spawn, but I don't think I want huge silvery floating hearts. I think we may want to consider health packs, ammo belts, weapon pickups, style meter boosters (sunglasses/trenchcoat?) etc, sitting around on tables in hard-to-control places. They would be placed by the mapper. Other than that they would work very much like TS's pickups.

Trenchcoat... maybe that's the deal. Every time you go into style mode your character wears a trenchcoat. Of course, then we would have to make a trenchcoat version of every model.
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Re: PTSD

Postby Daniel » Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:43 pm

Dementei wrote:Sorry misan for kinda interrupting but yea I'll be hosting 3.0 all day Sunday I'll' be playing after 7pm EST.
Hostname will be something like Double Action: Boogaloo - Revisiting TS *http://doubleactiongame.com/*

You should post that [url="http://forums.lunarworkshop.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=461"]here[/url] because not everyone comes to this side of the forum.

Vino wrote:Every time you go into style mode your character wears a trenchcoat. Of course, then we would have to make a trenchcoat version of every model.
If all models have a standardized animation set, you really only need to make one coat and submodel it for all the characters.
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