Hell has frozen over (ITT TRP supports melee special moves)

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Hell has frozen over (ITT TRP supports melee special moves)

Postby ThinRedPaste » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:12 am

Stunt melee. Think about that for a second. Fucking melee... out of stunts. Sliding toward a guy, about to run into him? Hurl yourself upward and smash his fucking teeth out with a wicked ass uppercut. Running on a wall, dude nearby? Throw yourself into an all out lunging haymaker and cave his goddamn skull in.

Nuts and bolts: You can only do special moves out of a stunt that keeps you moving in a predictable path for its duration. Also, I'm looking at it as a high risk/high reward mechanic. The longer you stay in the stunt, the more damage your punch will do when you finally throw it. This will help keep the mechanic from becoming backkick jousting 2.0. If you miss, god help you, cause you'll be rooted to the spot while your character recovers from massively overextending his punch. Land a good hit after a long slide, though, and you'll fuck them up pretty hard. Nail them with a couple bullets during the stunt and your rage fueled megapunch will probably finish them off, granting HUGE style.

Further, if this idea is adopted, I propose a complete overhaul of the existing melee as follows: First: Remove the dedicated melee weapon. Your gun is significantly harder than your knuckles. Use it to whack people with. Second: slow down the rate of stock attacks drastically, and increase their damage a bit. With this system the idea is for melee attacks to be a deliberate finisher, not your primary method of attack. Out of ammo? Better scavenge something. (Side idea: add ammo refills to the kill streak heal, so you don't have to worry about running dry if you're being a goddamn action hero - that's part of being a goddamn action hero, right?). Third: disallow dropping your last gun or spawning completely unarmed. This one rankles a bit; normally I don't like removing options, but I feel its important for reinforcing that the melee has a specific role: in this system, melee is meant to be a situational finishing move for bonus style, and it isn't meant to be able to stand up to guns on its own. Plus, wouldn't you rather that wall lunge punch be a wall lunge swing-your-rifle-like-a-baseball-bat?
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Re: Hell has frozen over (ITT TRP supports melee special mov

Postby Antagonist » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:59 am

This is kind of like what a few of us were talking about before. I think it works. I mean, melee is really fun in Halo (completely disregarding fucking energy swords and that kind of shit) and some other games that only have pistol whip melee, and they don't have dedicated punches and kicks. I also think that it would be really cool if the melee felt much clunkier and more deliberate because right now it feels a little too much like swinging the HL crowbar. It needs to be exciting but not too much of a "must-use" for player. It should work more like military combatives mixed with WWE, less like a Jet Li movie (or like Jet Li in Expendables 2, god damn that was great ultra violence). It shouldn't look too much like movie martial arts, but more like "okay here's a guy who knows how to kick ass". I would just love it if melee was similar to the way it is in Halo; where it can change the tide of a close quarters battle in an instant, but it takes practice to get the timing right to not get your ass kicked even harder because you just gimped yourself by releasing the finger from the trigger to deliver a strike that missed.

I really agree with everything that you're proposing here, TRP but I have some ideas too.

Standing melee should just be a nice pistol whip or barrel swipe or something like that, with some lunging but not some kind of an auto-aim like CODMW2 had. If you're running while you melee, it should go into the lunging and give you a cool-down before you can reach top speed again so that people can't chase each other down with melee because that looks really silly. Diving melee has got to be a tackle. Imagine if it was possible to break through a window with a guy and land on top of him, squishing him for some nice over-the-top blood splashes. I think that the sliding move has to be a move that uses physics to at least send a guy into the air or something if it feels too cheap to be able to bring a guy into prone position. Jumping melee has got to be a powerful looking jumping kick. Double jump melee (if that is ever put in the game) has got to be a drop kick that has actual physics to it. Fuck, man. I would even love to record animation reference material of this because I feel pretty inspired about all this. If you want me to be silly in front of a camera, I could do that.
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Re: Hell has frozen over (ITT TRP supports melee special mov

Postby ThinRedPaste » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:17 am

I'm kind of trying to avoid the anytime special moves with my system - They're what made the TS fu such bs. if you have to set up for the special moves in advance, and really commit to them, then they can be very powerful without being OP. but if you can just jump up and dropkick a guy whenever, then we're going to see dropkick jousting just like the old days, and that ain't cool. I think that outside of stunts melee should just be an offhand swipe with your gun, albeit a much beefier one than we have now. Even dive punching shouldn't get a buff, because its just too easy to do. I definitely don't want anything that forces another player prone, though I wouldn't be opposed to the uppercut popping them up in the air a bit or the wall lunge seriously affecting their view.
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Re: Hell has frozen over (ITT TRP supports melee special mov

Postby Vino » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:52 pm

I'm all about experimenting with this stuff. I think everything said in this thread so far has been pretty spot on. I think you realize that it's not going to happen until Boogaloo is done, but damn am I looking forward to when it is.

Edit: well, almost everything. I'm not so sure we should remove brawling and not having any weapons. I think it should suck if you try to do it, but I see no good reason to take it away entirely. If nothing else, it's the humiliation kill.
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Re: Hell has frozen over (ITT TRP supports melee special mov

Postby Antagonist » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:11 pm

I personally feel like one way TS got really fucked with was that it had weapons that were just there for humiliation kills. The outcome regarding that kinda stuff seems to say to not put shit into a game unless it's meant to be useful. Works out pretty nicely, even if there are things that are more useful...

Barehanded brawling just can't suit every game. I think that unrefined, unsophisticated-looking melee like pistol whipping, off-hand punches, hard frontkicks and tackles, a most a jumping kick to send a guy down a flight of stairs, are all more fitting to boogaloo. Cold-cocking someone in the back of the head with your gun like in Halo is as close to a perfect humil-kill as you'll ever need. Something like that; one button-press, available to anyone but not always a valid option. An extra function that adds depth but remains kind of believable. Maybe think "Death Wish", like "what would Bronson do?"

Also, seeing guys running around in the Source engine without guns trying to punch guys that have guns looks totally fat teenage xXOneWingAngel99Xx@mp3//nosound// style.
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Re: Hell has frozen over (ITT TRP supports melee special mov

Postby Vino » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:46 pm

If an attack does a lot of damage it's not a humiliation kill regardless of whether it's a melee attack or not. TS's melee kills weren't humiliation kills, they were just kills. I wouldn't even call the CS knife a humiliation kill -- the alt attack does 65 damage if I remember right.

The DA brawl should be a humiliation kill in that it's low damage and difficult to kill someone with unless you are lucky and get the drop on them. (Unless you have Bouncer.) Even the weapon stock attacks don't do all that much damage, and that's the way I think it needs to stay.

I think the player needs to be able to drop all weapons because otherwise it's an arbitrary limitation. In CS you get a default weapon if you throw all other weapons away. It's the knife. In DA you get brawl. You need something when you have no other weapons. If it doesn't let you drop that last weapon, the player's going to say, "Bullshit! Why not?! I could drop all the others just fine. Does this one have superglue on it or something?" It feels like a bug or like the developer was over-designing.
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Re: Hell has frozen over (ITT TRP supports melee special mov

Postby ThinRedPaste » Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:12 pm

Alternate solution: fuck ammo. Everyone gets bottomless pockets for their spare ammo, one of the skills gets a bottomless magazine, we capture one more action movie trope, and the reason for a default weapon to exist ceases to be. You'll never need to drop all your guns aside from going pure melee which is something we don't want, because if its a thing, people will demand it be balanced, and then we'll be right back in ts fu land.
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Re: Hell has frozen over (ITT TRP supports melee special mov

Postby misanq » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:38 am

I'd question whether ammo is even a relevant mechanic with the current ammo counts. Personally I'm partial to the unlimited ammo idea, if only because it streamlines the game a bit, but I would wonder if joe six-pack feels the same way.
As far as melee goes, I definitely agree with vino that there really isn't another way to have droppable weapons other than having a default melee weapon and the alternative of not being able to drop weapons at all isn't exactly preferable, in my opinion. If you don't want unarmed melee in the game at all, I'd suggest making brawl a knife instead. Otherwise, any sort of combo or skill move invites in FU-only immediately. You would want to make brawl so basic and shallow that it's too boring and skill-less to bother with BUSHIDO-HONOUR. The way it is right now is pretty much fine, I feel.

But if you want to make special melee moves, a jumping brawl attack for the pistol whip and smgs would be nice. Maybe a flying knee for the biker and a flying kick for wish?


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Re: Hell has frozen over (ITT TRP supports melee special mov

Postby Vino » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:45 am

Wow everyone is really in favor of infinite ammo? I never thought to even try it because I figured people would hate it. I'll give it a try next patch.
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Re: Hell has frozen over (ITT TRP supports melee special mov

Postby Antagonist » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:42 am

Yeah infinite ammo will be great. Having to reload in the first place is punishment enough for sprayers.

Oh and yes to the knee strike holy shit that would be cool.
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Re: Hell has frozen over (ITT TRP supports melee special mov

Postby Dementei » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:30 pm

What if the knee attack could only be used with a full style bar and it drained most of the bar while doing 75 damage or something like that? Also I did have fun with infinite ammo it was OP with FAL aim-in though XD
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